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Thread: Free practice in koryu: is it possible?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    While it is entirely possible to transfer that training to modern weaponry and tactics, I don't think that you could then still call the resultant training koryu.
    Paul

    First off, thank you, I am complimented.

    I think your comment here is an excellent one, and opens up an entirely different realm of discussion.

    Like, say here:

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/newthrea...newthread&f=20

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    Johan,
    Ah, mea culpa. I misinterpreted your statement.
    I agree that those that are still professional warriors are most aligned with the methods and ideas of the koryu. My objection to your statement was that the koryu train in outdated weapons. While it is entirely possible to transfer that training to modern weaponry and tactics, I don't think that you could then still call the resultant training koryu.

    Kit,
    You did a very nice job of putting down your thoughts. I am going to bookmark that particular post to refer to later as this topic rears its head on a semi-regular basis, and your post sums up the whole debate in a single cogent essay. Thanks for that!
    Paul,
    I agree with you. However interesting and worthwhile such training might be one could not call it koryu. Not at all.

    Happy landings.

    Johan Smits

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    Greetings mr. Nathan,


    I have to inform you that your understanding about Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo is also correct but only on a fundamental level and to some degree of course. As I had already said in my previous post Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo are not easily to distinguish even for us who are studying them professionaly. Mostly because one is diffusing into another and vice versa. For example: one of the current mainstream belief about both systems is also that we can start speaking about Koryu Budo only after Sengoku jidai while before that we can only speak about Koryu Bujutsu. Or on the other hand that after Sengoku jidai and especially during Tokugawa bakufu we can speak mainly only about Koryu Budo. Which are both true but only to some degree on a fundamental level of understanding. What brings us to the following question mr. Nate - How well do you really wish to understand these concepts?

    At this point I would like to inforn you that I am going to answer on your question only in a very short manner and on a little broader fundamental level. So that you will be able to decide based on your own knowledge, experiences understandings and of course preferrences how deeper you will wish to dive into these quite an elusive concepts.

    But before we proceed we should first stop at following fundamental difference between Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo - at their main goal(s). The most important goal of any Koryu Bujutsu ryuha is to prepare a student both physically, mentally and spiritually for actual combat (armed, unarmed, with one or two or three opponent and at advanced levels even on a mass scale) which main objective is the survival of a student in such a conflict. And that is what Koryu Bujutsu is all about - to prepare a student as best as it is possible for any form of an actual violent confrontation - combat. And to this main objective are entirely dedicated curriculums of any Koryu Bujutsu ryuha. All kata, techniques and movements of any Koryu Bujutsu ryuha have only one main objective - to kill one's opponent as quickly as possible with as minimal risks for oneself as possible. Any technique or movement that Koryu Bujutsu is teaching has a deadly result. There are no such thing as an "allowed" and an "unallowed" techniques within any Koryu Bujutsu ryuha curriculum. Koryu Bujutsu knows only a techniques and movements that works and those that do not. For example: the very first kata within Koryu Bujutsu "section" of Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu that any beginner will start learning from the very start ends with one's attack on an opponent's neck with an objective to decapitate one's opponent. There is not a single technique or movement within any Koryu Bujutsu ryuha that will not end with killing one's opponent. Koryu Bujutsu was designed for a military purposes and this can been seen throughout all of it's system. Therefore any student of Koryu Bujutsu will be taught to use proficiently all weapons of particular Koryu Bujutsu ryuha. In high days of Koryu Bujutsu those weapons were: yari (the most import one since it was the main weapon of bushi in a battle), nagimaki and later naginata (which were popular till 14th and first half of 15th century), jo and bo (as an additional weapons on a battlefield, which were taught mainly from an aspect if an one's opponent breaks one's yari, nagimaki or naginata), bow (the most important weapon of bushi until 12th and first half of 13th century), sword (only as an additional weapon on a battlefield after one has lost one's yari, nagimaki or naginata), unarmed combat (in an armour and without, against an armed and an unarmed opponent in an armor or without) and after the year 1543 also a gun. Of course there were also other additional weapons such as shuriken (which were used mostly in swordfight and in dueling), tessen, koga, tanto and as such. And most of these different weapons have always been included within curriculum of any Koryu Bujutsu ryuha. Though nowdays most Koryu Bujutsu ryuha have kept in their curriculums next weapons: sword, jo, bo, unarmed combat, tanto (though I would like to say at this point that japanese martial arts never really developed the use of knife to any advanced level as did Chinese, Philippines, Indonesians or Malaysians and other southeast Asian nations due to fact that a knife was never much used in japanese history of combat conflict - it just is not a japanese weapon of choice, if I may say so with all due respect of course) and to some extent also a naginata and even rarer and on even smaller basis yari. Of course there are still Koryu Bujutsu ryuha that have even nowdays in their curriculums weapons such as: shuriken, koga, tessen, kama, kusarigama, chigiriki or even a long yari (7 - 9 metres long) and nagimaki but those are very rare. But as I have already mentioned in my previous post Koryu Bujutsu is still evolving even nowdays and is evolving in many different avenues. For example, personally along with many other people who understand Koryu Bujutsu similar to me I am working on a further "adaptation" of Koryu Bujutsu to our time and societies. Which means that I have included in a curriculum of my own school besides traditional teachings of Koryu Bujutsu of a use of sword, jo, unarmed combat, bo and koga also a knife (which I am teaching mostly based on Chinese, Philippines, Burmanese and Spanish concepts) and a pistol (which I am teaching entirely based on a modern military CQC concepts applicated for a civilian use) along with a law of my country regarding self-defense, sociodynamics of criminality, criminal psychology, etc. At this point I would like to explicitly emphasise that that is only my own understanding of Koryu Bujutsu teachings as whole applied to the demands and changes of our time and societies and just one of many different avenues of evolution of Koryu Bujutsu. There has never been just one mainstream or "right" avenue of evolution of Koryu Bujutsu and all avenues of its evolution are equally right, though they are differentiated by understandings of us who have been studying its teachings and passing them on a future generations. As we all well know there is no such a thing as only one right understanding of some martial art's teaching as on the other hand there is also no such a thing as only one "true" or "right" teaching in any martial art.

    In above paragraph I spoke a little bit about the fundamental characteristics of Koryu Bujutsu but now I would like to speak a little bit of Koryu Budo and its fundamental charecteristics. While the main objective of Koryu Bujutsu is to as thoroughly as possible prepare a student for the demands of an actual combat (any form of it) and to survive it by any means possible with as little damage to oneself as possible, on the other hand Koryu Budo main objective is entirely different thing as I will try to elaborate in this paragraph. One of main objectives of Koryu Budo is of course still to prepare a student as thoroughly as possible for the demands of an actual combat but within its teachings and understanding of Budo as whole. While Koryu Bujutsu has no second thoughts about killing one's opponent if that is the best course of action in a particular moment of an actual combat, Koryu Budo has on the other hand quite some impediments to such an approach. One of the fundamental teachings of Koryu Budo is also that one should also try to save one's own opponent from his own folly. Here is also shown the big difference between Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo regarding their interpretations and applications of a fundamental principle of compassion. While Koryu Bujutsu interprets and applies this principle mostly in a form of a merciful quick death of one's opponet, Koryu Budo interprets this principle in a form of saving one's opponent life from a folly of his own actions. Therefore from a Koryu Budo student it will be expected not just to defend oneself but also to avoid to seriously hurt one's opponent as long as it is possible. And to try every possible option/action imaginable and of course appropriate in a particular moment of an actual combat to subdue one's opponent while still saving opponent's life and defending one's own. While on the other hand from a Koryu Bujutsu student it will be expected to subdue one's own opponent by any means neccesary or to kill one's opponent even regardless of defending one's own life. But this is only one of many differences between Koryu Budo and Koryu Bujutsu. On the other hand, for example: Koryu Budo gives a much greater emphasise on spiritual development of a student than Koryu Bujutsu and so on. But while I am not intending to write another book on this subject (at least not yet) this short explanation of differences between Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo will have to suffice for now.

    Now I would like to address the the question of interchangeability of Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo within one ryuha. One of current main misunderstandings about Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo is that they are two very different systems which evolved differently in time and space and for completely different uses and consenquently that they are not interchangeable. While this understanding is still correct on some fundamental and broader level the reality of both systems is quite different. If we start studying and researching any Koryu Bujutsu ryuha, for example:

    - Asayama Ichiden - ryu heiho,
    - Hyoho Niten Ichi - ryu kenjutsu,
    - Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage - ryu kenjutsu,
    - Maniwa Nen - ryu,
    - Yagyu Shinkage - ryu hyoho,
    - Tendor - ryu naginatajutsu,
    - Toda - ha Buko – ryu,
    - Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto – ryu,
    - Tatsumi – ryu,
    - Takenouchi – ryu,
    - Hozoin – ryu Takada – ha

    If I name only a few most well known among Koryu Bujutsu ryuha. We fill soon find out that all these various ryuha combine and interchange teachings of Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo within their own curriculums. But if I may complicated the matters even a little bit more I would like to mention at this point that there are many Koryu Bujutsu ryuha who give an emphasise on Koryu Budo teachings and vice versa. Why is that so? Simply because Koryu Bujutsu teachings do not oppose in any way teachings of Koryu Budo and vice versa. Actually Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo are two sides of the same coin and they always walk hand in hand. You cannot thoroughly study one without the other. There have never been any fixed boundaries between Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo within any traditional ryuha. All boundaries between them are strictly arbitrarily nature and a result of different events in history of development of japanese nation and society. But that is a theme for a quite another thread.


    Sincerely,
    Vodopivc Grega

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Although it can be argued that due to the needs of the profession, the need for more dynamic training is actually greater. I note again the Kobusho's seeking instructors trained in free-fighting traditions.

    Bringing it forward with scientific research from the Force Science Research Center showing that heart rate spikes and stress reactions in force on force training closely mimic real world situations: thereby providing a "stress inoculation" for the performer and thus a more effective training methodology. I have personally seen this work in the real world. With the caveat of guarding against gaming still applying.

    Jujutsu has I think most radically changed with the dropping of randori. Reading through Kano's biography it is plain that when he was training in classical ryuha, randori was a regular and vibrant part of practice. He of course trained mainly with former Kobusho instructors - but he makes no mention of how "unusual" it is that all these people in various traditions regularly do randori, regularly engage in inter-school matches, and even show up at each other's dojo and challenge each other. Then he describes in some cases absolutely thuggish behavior on the part of some, or things like one guy getting beat up and the rest of his dojo mates scouring the pleasure quarters looking for the culprits and a mass melee happening.

    Imagine that happening with students of Tenjin Shinyo ryu and Yoshin-ryu today?? It doesn't. It is one reason that I have made the statement that gets people's hakama in a bunch: Brazilian Jiujitsu's machismo culture is probably far closer to the way things were in terms of social and training dynamics to old school jujutsu than koryu jujutsu is....because those things still happen in that community.

    The point is the guys training were young, strong, athletic, highly competitive individuals who liked to smash people. The same kind of guys you get into fights with in real life....

    (flame retardant coat on....)

    Even post 1900 E J Harrison is training in schools that do a lot of randori. Yet fast forward just a few generations and we are informed that "Kano invented Randori" and that the "Old Schools just trained in kata." Come again?



    That there has been a change in other traditions is also obvious.

    Didn't Otake Riisuke write that he started Katori Shinto ryu to prepare himself for the possibility of combat in WWII?? I don't know if he repudiated that reasoning based on the training itself in later years, but the voluminous writing of his student, Donn Draeger, with extensive appeals to combative realism and a strong flavor toward military and law enforcement tends toward that fact that he did not.

    Draeger clearly passed this frame of reference vis-a-vis koryu on to his students: whether an actual practical adaptation of the mindset and skills of the koryu to modern applications occurred or can occur remains to be seen: those most obviously "koryu" in approach have I think missed the mark a bit in terms of the physical skills portion of training.

    With the change in viewing it as potentially practical, it is perhaps natural that any need for "testing" skills either in the dojo amongst students themselves, or in challenge matches or duels dissipated. This in turn would lead to the types of people that wanted to do that kind of thing as their main practice fulfilling that interest elsewhere: Judo, Kendo, Karatedo, etc.

    Now this is not at all to say that a "sportive" element is necessary. Draeger was pretty direct that true combative schools had "no sportive application." How this gets turned around to mean that there "is not antagonistic training" is the question.

    To some extent, from descriptions of classical training, I think they probably did kata in a manner very different than today. The simple brutality you see toward students even in some modern Japanese martial arts (even modern grappling!) and budo clubs and sumo is probably a pale shadow of what used to occur.

    Of course they were also free of the issues of civil and even criminal legal liability that modern day instructors are faced with. While not exactly the best training method for the majority of people, those that survive that become tough mothers who aren't too concerned about hurting other people....

    This is to say nothing of the parallel tradition of testing and challenge matches within the realm of swordsmanship and other weapons. The life of Takeda Sokaku is a wonderful example of this, as were those of his predecessors and even some earlier modern practitioners of just a generation or two ago. Wasn't the current Kashima Shinryu headmaster required to fight challenge matches by his teacher?

    But seemingly not the subsequent generations?

    As noted - the current stuff happening in the aikido community in terms of watching history get erased, revised, and adapted to fit political and personal needs may be a clue here. Already before the modern era they had to put a stop to all the dueling with injurious weapons like bokuto. But the fighting was still there and viewed as combative, or at least dueling.

    We know WWII had a TREMENDOUS effect on how budo/bujutsu was perceived by Japanese themselves and how it was served up to the world.

    Martial arts can't train like that, because it is too real, too much a reminder of the modern bushido culture that was so horrific.....but sports, yes, yes! Just like your American culture (at the time) sports make for strong minds and wholesome morality! And we'll just erase this combat practicality thing from it altogether, or maybe just ferret it away in a hole for a while.

    The whole Pre-War label comes to mind; budo-speak for "back when things were more combative."
    Kit,

    I am sometimes wondering if jujutsu ryu really stopped doing randori (back then). One of he reason's Kodokan judo became so popular so fast was that they offered a wonderful form of training: randori.
    Probably most jujutsu ryuha had some form of randori but I think Kano came up with a better and more refined form of randori.
    Before Kodokan judo became Kodokan judo, Kano ryu was just one of the ryu which became the 'national' standard of jujutsu so to speak.
    Was it not Ellis who wrote something like the jujutsu people trained kata in their respective styles and for randori they turned to the Kodokan?

    I wonder how many practtioners of classical jujutsu ryu also were involved in Kodokan judo. When later that connection between the ryu and the Kodokan was lost the ryu also had lost their "own"form of randori is my guess.

    Happy landings,

    Johan Smits

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    Greetings mr.Chris,


    Personally I have been studying and I am teaching Seito Hyoho Niten Ichi – ryu. As regards my martial arts background ,since you asked so politely about it, my four basic martial arts are:

    1. Takht – el – Karash (A Persian – Ottomanic martial art which evolved from an Indian martial art Vajramukti also known as Vajramushti, from which later evolved present day Indian martial art Kalaripayattu. Takht – el – Karash was basically a martial art of Beyaz Yeniceri (roughly translated as: "White Janissaries") what was an Ottomanic offical name for sipahi (heavy cavalrymen) who were of southslavic origin – mostly from parts of modern day Bosnia and Herzegovina. And this martial art is still present in countries of former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey, though its very rare nowdays and is still being taught strictly in traditional way only among one family members.);

    2. La Verdadera Destreza - a Spanish traditional system of fencing;

    3. Seito Hyoho Niten Ichi – ryu;

    4. Shotokai karate

    An additional martial arts that I have been studying for different purposes are :
    - Minghe and Shihe Quan,
    - Baguazhang,
    - Xingyichuan,
    - Saigo Ha Takeda – ryu aikijutsu,
    - Spanish Navaja school of knifefighting,
    - And a little bit of Kali, Penjak silat and Bando.


    As you can see I have quite a diverse and broad background from different traditional martial arts. To which I could also add my military training in specific military systems such as is CQC and as such. And is it from this diverse background and my intense study of traditional martial arts, and martial and military systems that I got my distinction about Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo.

    How did I manage to train so many different martial arts and keep them separate? I have to inform you that I am glad to answer to this question, which I have been quite frequently asked. And the answer is actually quite simple. I have started studying martial arts at age of 5 years and I have managed to keep my beginner's mind whenever I started studying some new additional martial art. For which goes all thanks to my late father who started to cross-train me in different martial arts at the very start, but most importantly managed to taught me how to keep my beginner's mind whenever I start studying something new – and not just martial arts. Something what is quite hard to do for most people who so hardly let go of their previous personal understandings, believes, concepts, etc whenever they approach something new.

    If I would have to say what is the most important thing that I have been taught by my own studying of martial arts I would say an ability to keep my beginner's mind whenever I approach something new or whenever I meet new people. Personally I like to believe that beginner's mind is one of the greatest gifts that all martial arts havr given to a mankind.

    Oh, and of course I have managed to study so many different martial arts with a lot of hard work. Even nowdays my daily routine includes from 4 to 6 hours of training at minimum, not including the trainings that I have in my own school. And that is another "difference" between all of us who have been studying martial arts professionaly and those who have other professions in their life. Though martial arts cannot never been just a profession, they are a way of life. Keep that in mind.


    Sincerely,
    Vodopivc Grega

  6. #51
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    My theory is that Kano really didn't change much at all technically, or how much of it was there. Other than the greater emphasis on ashi-waza (the "Kodokan no Ashi")probably because they were lucky enough to have nice mats!

    I think he did a few other things:

    He was more modern in his approach, which was popular then.

    He claims in his writing that his theory of kuzushi was what was the difference. We know other schools taught it (just like ukemi of different types were taught, despite what some think). How much was openly taught in the modern sense is perhaps a question. He also taught a kuzushi and a style of throwing that was probably easier on the body: that is until it became totally sport oriented!! That old style lock you up and screw you straight into the ground is hard to fall for!

    He managed to recruit a lot of very strong jujutsuka, who performed well in competitions. This is not something that should be lost on people: young men into fighting want teachers and schools that produce results. Naturally people will gravitate to someone whose school is perceived as becoming the top dog, for whatever reason.

    Those heavy hitters came and stayed for a reason, though. Kano could not "stack the deck" without their getting something from it. Obviously it wasn't because they were being made rich men! I think they also appreciated the open and more modern approach to teaching and sharing and saw that it had a positive effect on their skills. They also had an opportunity to train now with jujutsuka from other schools and share information without it always being a fight. That's a big plus.

    Kano made it a lot more egalitarian. Contrast this with Takeda who taught upper crust and cops and soldiers and preferred it that way. Elitist, but also it goes to the approach of teaching dangerous stuff to people who would use it carefully. I totally get this and follow the same practice when I teach my armed CQC group: no kids, have to be a CCW holder or serving LE or military, and have to pass muster. Stuff I don't want to teach any Tom, Dick, or Harry that walks through the door because it involves guns, knives, and high level force responses based on mature decision making that can change lives irrevocably in the wrong hands.

    But Kano wanted everyone to benefit from a physical education model that removed the combative elements, or at least an overt focus on them.

    Kano also went against the "Thug-jutsu" reputation and training approach. This is amazingly important if you have ever trained with guys like that. It just gets tiresome after a while, especially the older you get. He at once made jujutsu more respectable and probably improved student retention at the same time.

    Naturally this would become increasingly popular, especially if the fighters the school was producing were effective. Why train with teachers and seniors that just pound you without teaching you much, don't care if you get hurt, and only welcome you into the fold after you passed some "survival of the fittest" test?? When you can train with good guys with great technique, not get hurt, and actually get taught openly?
    Last edited by Hissho; 2nd February 2012 at 20:35.

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    Greetings Johan,


    All Koryu Bujutsu ryuha and even most of Koryu Budo ryuha in their curriculums have always included all free fundamental levels of kumite and also an ura level of kumite, free training component if you like, as I mentioned in my first post in this thread. But as I also already mentioned before there have never been many students of any Koryu ryuha (Bujutsu or Budo alike) who will managed to accomplish such an advanced level of training. Usually it takes approximately 15 – 20 years of intense and dedicated daily training just for someone to even start seriously learning and studying Go level of omote level of kumite. Which is still far away from Jo level of ura level of kumite that really is an entirely free training and free sparring.

    I have to say that I am always very amused whenever there is talk about if Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo practice free training and sparring in regards to Gendai Budo. Practitioners, instructors and even many teachers of Gendai Budo so easily judge us who practice Koryu Bujutsu and Budo that our training is based entirely on kata. Though only few of them are even familiar with the bunkai – oyo – kumite system and ever rarer are those among them who actually know a little bit about the omote – ura system. All that most of them know about us are our kata training and therefore mistakenly believe that our sole training is based entirely on kata training which could not be farther away from the actual state. Just because most of practitioners, instructors and even teachers are not familiar with that we are practicing kumite that does not mean that there is no kumite practice within Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo ryuha. Gendai Budo has always been so eager to try to disprove the traditions of Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo, which gave birth to it, wherever it can. It seems as Gendai Budo has been fighting against everything what is any way connected to Koryu traditions what is actually quite a logical approach of early development of Gendai Budo if we consider the time in which Gendai Budo was born and what kind of mindset gave birth to it. But at this point I have no plan to start talking about history and early development of Gendai Budo, though I am willing to speak about it in some other future thread.

    Well, let me return back to our current topic. One of main reproach of Gendai Budo about Koryu is that we do not practice kumite like they do, which I already tried to explain that is not a case. But lets stop for a whiel at Gendai concept of kumite. There is no doubt that Gendai introduces a kumite at very early stages of student's development and studying and that a kumite is a vital part of any Gendai ryuha throughout whole its curriculum. But what kind of kumite Gendai ryuha really practice? A kumite that is restricted by so many such and others safety regulation and rules, by a system of an allowed and an unallowed techniques, by a system of an authorized and an unauthorized techniques, by competition rules, etc. A student of Gendai Budo is allowed to express oneself freely only within all these different regulations and restrictions, and God forbids if a student of Gendai Budo at kumite uses one of techniques or even a movement that was not authorized by one's ryuha or is not being taught by one's ryuha qualified instructors or teachers. But if a student of Gendai Budo respects all these different regulations, rules and restrictions one is otherwise completly "free" to use anything one likes while practicing kumite. With all due respect my fellow Gendai budoka but this is not neither kumite nor free training or sparring, at least not from a Koryu and my own standpoint of view. If I am allowed a little bit more aggressive approach I would like to say that what Gendai Budo calls a kumite is only a children imitations of kumite who are while playing soldiers pretend and imagine to be warriors. Personally I am well familiar with Gendai Budo reasons for a need to practice kumite as well as with its underlying principles and teachings. But please do not try to compare your childlike version of kumite with that what is kumite within Koryu. We are here speaking about two entirely different things which are meant for quite a different people entirely.

    Now lets look what kumite really is within Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo. When a student of Koryu Bujutsu or Budo reaches even the first fundamental level of kumite (Go level of omote level of kumite) one is set free from all rules, restrictions and regulations. Even at first fundamental level of kumite there are no rules, restrictions or regulations, not even a safety regulations that would restrict a student in any way possible. None. And any form of any level of kumite always ends with a simulated death or heavy physical injury of one of the participants of a particular kumite. Every single kumite ends when one or both participants of a partictular kumite is not able to fight any more or has been killed. At this point I would also like to say that the concept of ai – uchi is taught as a last resource and not as a favourable cause of action like it is taught within Gendai Budo. A student of Koryu Bujutsu or Budo is therefore allowed and even encouraged to use any means neccessary to subdue or to kill one's opponent during kumite practice. There are also no such things as light – contact, semilight – contact or full – contact sparring within Koryu kumite practice. There is always full – contact sparring and as forceful, ferocious and intense as one is capable of. Regardless to physical, sexual, age or any other kinds of differences between participants of a particular kumite. And if I mention just one very specific characteristic of Koryu concept of kumite. A student is allowed to use any movement or technique one chooses and knows while practicing kumite, regardless if one has been taught a particular technique or movement within one's own ryuha or somewhere else or even if a technique or movement one has developed entirely by oneself. At the end I would only like to address a question regarding safety in this kind of practice. I mentioned that there are no safety regulations or rules in this kind of practice. Well, that is not entirely true. Even at Koryu we do use and practice safety regulations in regard to kumite, though they are quite different from those that Gendai Budo uses. Afterall we are not killing each other at our trainings. Every single kumite is always closely supervised by a qualified instructor or teacher who's function is only to immediately stop a kumite in case if he judges that there is too high risk of a particular movement or technique in a particular time of one of participants of kumite that could result in a serious physical injury of another participants of a particular kumite. Otherwise the only safety protection that a student has in any form of any level of kumite is one's own knowledge and one's own experiences. Therefore there can be only one kumite at a time during one training. This is the Koryu concept of kumite and as we can see it is entirely different thing to that what Gendai understands and practices under the very same name. This is what a free training and sparring are all about. I hope that I managed to make clear why it takes 15 to 20 years of intense and dedicated studying before a student can even reach or why will not all students of one Koryu ryuha even ever reached this advanced level of practice.



    Sincerely,
    Vodopivc Grega


    P.S.:

    What you watched at your friend's dojo was probably some form of oyo practice, most probably Go or Chu level of omote level of oyo. Personally I am glad for you that you had an opportunity to watch this kind of practice. And yes, I am well familiar with how impressing our oyo practices can be, especially for an outsiders or practictioners of Gendai Budo. I would only like to add just one little thing. Keep in mind that what you watched at your friend's dojo was still just an oyo. Koryu kumite practice is entirely different thing, though I have no doubt that you would be very impressed if you would have an opportunity to watch such a practice.

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    Moved to the new thread
    Last edited by Ellis Amdur; 3rd February 2012 at 06:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KoryuBudo View Post
    Greetings Johan,


    All Koryu Bujutsu ryuha and even most of Koryu Budo ryuha in their curriculums have always included all free fundamental levels of kumite and also an ura level of kumite, free training component if you like, as I mentioned in my first post in this thread. But as I also already mentioned before there have never been many students of any Koryu ryuha (Bujutsu or Budo alike) who will managed to accomplish such an advanced level of training. Usually it takes approximately 15 – 20 years of intense and dedicated daily training just for someone to even start seriously learning and studying Go level of omote level of kumite. Which is still far away from Jo level of ura level of kumite that really is an entirely free training and free sparring.

    I have to say that I am always very amused whenever there is talk about if Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo practice free training and sparring in regards to Gendai Budo. Practitioners, instructors and even many teachers of Gendai Budo so easily judge us who practice Koryu Bujutsu and Budo that our training is based entirely on kata. Though only few of them are even familiar with the bunkai – oyo – kumite system and ever rarer are those among them who actually know a little bit about the omote – ura system. All that most of them know about us are our kata training and therefore mistakenly believe that our sole training is based entirely on kata training which could not be farther away from the actual state. Just because most of practitioners, instructors and even teachers are not familiar with that we are practicing kumite that does not mean that there is no kumite practice within Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo ryuha. Gendai Budo has always been so eager to try to disprove the traditions of Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo, which gave birth to it, wherever it can. It seems as Gendai Budo has been fighting against everything what is any way connected to Koryu traditions what is actually quite a logical approach of early development of Gendai Budo if we consider the time in which Gendai Budo was born and what kind of mindset gave birth to it. But at this point I have no plan to start talking about history and early development of Gendai Budo, though I am willing to speak about it in some other future thread.

    Well, let me return back to our current topic. One of main reproach of Gendai Budo about Koryu is that we do not practice kumite like they do, which I already tried to explain that is not a case. But lets stop for a whiel at Gendai concept of kumite. There is no doubt that Gendai introduces a kumite at very early stages of student's development and studying and that a kumite is a vital part of any Gendai ryuha throughout whole its curriculum. But what kind of kumite Gendai ryuha really practice? A kumite that is restricted by so many such and others safety regulation and rules, by a system of an allowed and an unallowed techniques, by a system of an authorized and an unauthorized techniques, by competition rules, etc. A student of Gendai Budo is allowed to express oneself freely only within all these different regulations and restrictions, and God forbids if a student of Gendai Budo at kumite uses one of techniques or even a movement that was not authorized by one's ryuha or is not being taught by one's ryuha qualified instructors or teachers. But if a student of Gendai Budo respects all these different regulations, rules and restrictions one is otherwise completly "free" to use anything one likes while practicing kumite. With all due respect my fellow Gendai budoka but this is not neither kumite nor free training or sparring, at least not from a Koryu and my own standpoint of view. If I am allowed a little bit more aggressive approach I would like to say that what Gendai Budo calls a kumite is only a children imitations of kumite who are while playing soldiers pretend and imagine to be warriors. Personally I am well familiar with Gendai Budo reasons for a need to practice kumite as well as with its underlying principles and teachings. But please do not try to compare your childlike version of kumite with that what is kumite within Koryu. We are here speaking about two entirely different things which are meant for quite a different people entirely.

    Now lets look what kumite really is within Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo. When a student of Koryu Bujutsu or Budo reaches even the first fundamental level of kumite (Go level of omote level of kumite) one is set free from all rules, restrictions and regulations. Even at first fundamental level of kumite there are no rules, restrictions or regulations, not even a safety regulations that would restrict a student in any way possible. None. And any form of any level of kumite always ends with a simulated death or heavy physical injury of one of the participants of a particular kumite. Every single kumite ends when one or both participants of a partictular kumite is not able to fight any more or has been killed. At this point I would also like to say that the concept of ai – uchi is taught as a last resource and not as a favourable cause of action like it is taught within Gendai Budo. A student of Koryu Bujutsu or Budo is therefore allowed and even encouraged to use any means neccessary to subdue or to kill one's opponent during kumite practice. There are also no such things as light – contact, semilight – contact or full – contact sparring within Koryu kumite practice. There is always full – contact sparring and as forceful, ferocious and intense as one is capable of. Regardless to physical, sexual, age or any other kinds of differences between participants of a particular kumite. And if I mention just one very specific characteristic of Koryu concept of kumite. A student is allowed to use any movement or technique one chooses and knows while practicing kumite, regardless if one has been taught a particular technique or movement within one's own ryuha or somewhere else or even if a technique or movement one has developed entirely by oneself. At the end I would only like to address a question regarding safety in this kind of practice. I mentioned that there are no safety regulations or rules in this kind of practice. Well, that is not entirely true. Even at Koryu we do use and practice safety regulations in regard to kumite, though they are quite different from those that Gendai Budo uses. Afterall we are not killing each other at our trainings. Every single kumite is always closely supervised by a qualified instructor or teacher who's function is only to immediately stop a kumite in case if he judges that there is too high risk of a particular movement or technique in a particular time of one of participants of kumite that could result in a serious physical injury of another participants of a particular kumite. Otherwise the only safety protection that a student has in any form of any level of kumite is one's own knowledge and one's own experiences. Therefore there can be only one kumite at a time during one training. This is the Koryu concept of kumite and as we can see it is entirely different thing to that what Gendai understands and practices under the very same name. This is what a free training and sparring are all about. I hope that I managed to make clear why it takes 15 to 20 years of intense and dedicated studying before a student can even reach or why will not all students of one Koryu ryuha even ever reached this advanced level of practice.



    Sincerely,
    Vodopivc Grega


    P.S.:

    What you watched at your friend's dojo was probably some form of oyo practice, most probably Go or Chu level of omote level of oyo. Personally I am glad for you that you had an opportunity to watch this kind of practice. And yes, I am well familiar with how impressing our oyo practices can be, especially for an outsiders or practictioners of Gendai Budo. I would only like to add just one little thing. Keep in mind that what you watched at your friend's dojo was still just an oyo. Koryu kumite practice is entirely different thing, though I have no doubt that you would be very impressed if you would have an opportunity to watch such a practice.

    Hi and thanks for sharing,It is probably not obvious from my posts but I have had actually some exposure to koryu and it's practice.
    Katori Shinto ryu being one of them, Sugino-ha albeit a long time ago.
    What I watched was sword, naginata and bo - nothing else but the omote kata but done in a very lively and intense way.
    It was then that the thought came up that the intensity resembled the intensity of free practice quite closely.

    Happy landings,

    Johan Smits

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    Quote Originally Posted by KoryuBudo View Post
    Greetings mr.Chris,


    Personally I have been studying and I am teaching Seito Hyoho Niten Ichi – ryu. As regards my martial arts background ,since you asked so politely about it, my four basic martial arts are:

    1. Takht – el – Karash (A Persian – Ottomanic martial art which evolved from an Indian martial art Vajramukti also known as Vajramushti, from which later evolved present day Indian martial art Kalaripayattu. Takht – el – Karash was basically a martial art of Beyaz Yeniceri (roughly translated as: "White Janissaries") what was an Ottomanic offical name for sipahi (heavy cavalrymen) who were of southslavic origin – mostly from parts of modern day Bosnia and Herzegovina. And this martial art is still present in countries of former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey, though its very rare nowdays and is still being taught strictly in traditional way only among one family members.);

    2. La Verdadera Destreza - a Spanish traditional system of fencing;

    3. Seito Hyoho Niten Ichi – ryu;

    4. Shotokai karate

    An additional martial arts that I have been studying for different purposes are :
    - Minghe and Shihe Quan,
    - Baguazhang,
    - Xingyichuan,
    - Saigo Ha Takeda – ryu aikijutsu,
    - Spanish Navaja school of knifefighting,
    - And a little bit of Kali, Penjak silat and Bando.


    As you can see I have quite a diverse and broad background from different traditional martial arts. To which I could also add my military training in specific military systems such as is CQC and as such. And is it from this diverse background and my intense study of traditional martial arts, and martial and military systems that I got my distinction about Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo.

    How did I manage to train so many different martial arts and keep them separate? I have to inform you that I am glad to answer to this question, which I have been quite frequently asked. And the answer is actually quite simple. I have started studying martial arts at age of 5 years and I have managed to keep my beginner's mind whenever I started studying some new additional martial art. For which goes all thanks to my late father who started to cross-train me in different martial arts at the very start, but most importantly managed to taught me how to keep my beginner's mind whenever I start studying something new – and not just martial arts. Something what is quite hard to do for most people who so hardly let go of their previous personal understandings, believes, concepts, etc whenever they approach something new.

    If I would have to say what is the most important thing that I have been taught by my own studying of martial arts I would say an ability to keep my beginner's mind whenever I approach something new or whenever I meet new people. Personally I like to believe that beginner's mind is one of the greatest gifts that all martial arts havr given to a mankind.

    Oh, and of course I have managed to study so many different martial arts with a lot of hard work. Even nowdays my daily routine includes from 4 to 6 hours of training at minimum, not including the trainings that I have in my own school. And that is another "difference" between all of us who have been studying martial arts professionaly and those who have other professions in their life. Though martial arts cannot never been just a profession, they are a way of life. Keep that in mind.


    Sincerely,
    Vodopivc Grega
    Hi Grega,

    Ha, just Chris is fine....

    Thanks for that list, there's quite a few unusual arts in there! A few things I'm still not entirely sure about, though, you initially said that you had trained in a number of Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo since early childhood, and are now running a school dedicated to them... but I can only see one Koryu in your lists at all (with maybe a second, but I'm not sure about that). Which Ryu have you studied? One reason I'm asking is that you say (in your next post) that ALL Koryu Bujutsu have ALWAYS included various kumite forms, including a free-form training, and, honestly, that has not been my experience in some of the Koryu I have trained in or had some experience in dealing with. So I'm still trying to get a handle on where your concepts are coming from. Oh, and while I have you here, can you remind me which one is the "Seito" line for HNIR? From what I understand it's a bit disputed between some of the lines... which head are you teaching under the authority of?

    Thanks again!
    With Respect,
    Chris Parker.

    兵法二天一流剣術 Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    天真正伝香取神道流兵法 Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    熟練道場武道兵法 Jukuren Dojo Budo Heiho (www.budomelbourne.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by KoryuBudo View Post
    Greetings mr.Chris,


    Personally I have been studying and I am teaching Seito Hyoho Niten Ichi – ryu. As regards my martial arts background ,since you asked so politely about it, my four basic martial arts are:
    SNIP

    2. La Verdadera Destreza - a Spanish traditional system of fencing;
    SNIP
    Sincerely,
    Vodopivc Grega
    Dear Sir,
    This is very interesting, I assume you studied this in Spain, might you have studied with Pous Cuberes who also does niten ichi ryu, but I thought he did hyoho niten ichi ryu.

    Steve
    Steve Hick

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    Mr. Grega,

    I'm interested in what you are saying. You seem to have quite a breadth of knowledge on the subject of martial arts, and a decent amount of depth of knowledge of Japanese martial arts, but I have some questions and comments for you. I mean everything respectfully though sometimes I am bad at conveying respect in my internet posts and there is a language barrier between us also.

    Your theory of a distinction between Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo seems like you have started with Draeger's framework (to whit, Bujutsu systems come from the Warring States period and were meant to inculcate battlefield prowess; Budo systems began to develop in the Edo period and were mean to inculcate more a set of "warrior virtues" which would serve the bushi in their new social role as bureaucrats) and then made the observation that these are more like two interwoven strings that exist to various extents in all the ryuha.

    Could you provide some specific ryuha that have one, the other, or both the Bujutsu and Budo aspect?

    I'm also curious about your bunkai - oyo - kumite structure, with each area of training having chu, go, jo levels and omote and ura aspects for each. Where do you get these terms from? I don't believe these terms are used in most koryu.

    As far as your concept of Bujutsu / Budo goes, I think you have tried to reconcile Draeger's historical division of koryu with your own personal experience that there is some of the spiritual stuff even in the very old schools, and in so doing, you have rendered the distinctions somewhat pointless. I understand that English is not your first language, but you use terms like ellusive and seem to have a hard time pinning down just what Koryu Bujutsu and Koryu Budo are. I think that's because you actually realize that there is not much of a point to these distinctions. Martial training involves practical combative skills, mental skills, and is ultimately about finding ways to minimize the practitioner's exposure to fights. Furthermore, if you want to break out the various types of wisdom that koryu are supposed to transmit, its probably more than two sets of things.

    But at any rate, making these categories more concrete by supplying specific examples would be a good step to take.

    As far as your generalized training structure, it would again be useful to know where you get those terms from - are those HNIR terms? They sound like concepts Liam Keely has written about with regards to Tatsumi ryu. Or maybe they are terms from one of the modern Budo organizations that have made their way back into koryu?

    The reason I ask about this is that I think there is a danger in creating a model that all ryuha need to be forced into. If a particular ryuha doesn't use those terms, I would not want to apply them; the ryuha possibly has a perfectly good framework and terminology of its own. Perhaps it could be said that Shindo Muso ryu's Kage level of kata is just the "Jo level of Oyo" or something, but by such categorization you've just assumed you understand the entire way Shindo Muso ryu training is supposed to progress - which is entirely different than the way HNIR or any other ryuha has its training structured. You've kind of obscured the view of the actual ryuha.

    And furthermore, you seem to have a broader background than just Japanese martial arts - so does this model apply to Spanish fencing and the blade systems of the Pacific rim as well? Or is that outside of the scope of your discussion?

    I hope you don't mind my questions and comments. Again I apologize if my tone seems challenging or direct, I don't intend any disrespect.

    Thanks,
    Cliff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    As far as your generalized training structure, it would again be useful to know where you get those terms from - are those HNIR terms?
    Hi Cliff,

    No, they are not... and nor am I aware of anyone named Grega Vodopivc (or anyone else in Slovenia) teaching Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu under Iwami Toshio Harukatsu (seito).

    An up-to-date list of those with the authority to teach is here:

    http://hyohonitenichiryu.wordpress.c...ks/dojos-list/

    I personally know (and train with) all European dojo leaders. Mr Vodopivc is not known to me (or my friends at Hombu), but if required, I can check with Iwami-soke directly.

    Best wishes,

    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu UK Shibu
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

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    From Koryubudo

    For example: the very first kata within Koryu Bujutsu "section" of Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu that any beginner will start learning from the very start ends with one's attack on an opponent's neck with an objective to decapitate one's opponent.

    Do you mean 指先 from the 太刀勢法?????? News to me.

    regards Reg Sakamoto
    Reg Sakamoto
    a student of applied kinesiology through combatives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ahundara View Post
    News to me.
    Seconded - one of many strange comments about HNIR from Mr Vodopivc. My favourite is the 'all koryu techniques end in killing' one. He obviously has no idea of the relationship between uchidachi and shidachi in his own school... ;-)
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

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