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Thread: Free practice in koryu: is it possible?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefffen View Post
    I am not sure of Benkei the Monk“s interest here but I did not get the feeling that firing and mass formation fighting was what he was aiming for. It“s rather if kata is enough for a man on man sword fighting scenario is good enough. If that prepares you enough.
    Indeed, and I think he's got it right from everything I've ever seen in my budo career, I've never seen anyone with kata only experience step onto a kendo floor and win his first match, I certainly have no illusions that I could take a moderately trained kendo kid, even if I was allowed any target at all. I twitch and he hits me, simple as that, and it has happened in the deep distant past. But I've also seen that those with kata and sparring experience are much more sophisticated in their practice, a different feel to their kendo.

    Having said that, there is a story from the early days of kendo that one of the old guard who didn't approve all this new sparring stuff stepped onto the floor and beat his opponents.

    Now, having swung real swords and bokuto for years could I beat that same kendo kid if we both had no armour and were using shinken? Truthfully I am confident it would come down to which of us was more willing to die to prove a point rather than whose training was better. Again there are stories of some of the old iaido guys trying out their shinken against one another "out behind the barn" and their comments were more or less the same. The training rather deserts one when facing actual sharp steel.

    The only person I know of who has actually faced sharp steel is Chris Amberger who dueled in a German University Frat. His comments are also interesting and worth looking up if they're on the net.

    Kata and sparring both appeared in the history of sword study, I suspect that means people found value in both.

    Kim.

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    Yes, Steffen hits it on the nail!


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    My thoughts is that if free fighting is going to make me better I believe I must do it frequently not just try it out now and then. And thats when I start to think twice. And if you are going to do it you should have kata sunken already in your bone.
    And I don't feel kendo is comparable enough when talking about this topic. The rules and tools are just too different

    If you have not read this then you should Benkei.
    http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/sh...get-initiation.

    And

    http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/sh...yu-in-the-West

    They both touches this topic.
    Steffen Gjerding
    Kakudokan dojo

    Yup, lousy english

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  5. #20
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    Some of my own musings and experience in koryu kata training --

    Link 1

    Link 2
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

  6. #21
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    Nice, Josh.

    #1 is a good one with some very interesting parallels to drilling/force on force with simunitions.

    Force on force is of course different than shiai, but it appears from yours and others revealing of how things "used to be" that many ryu did a lot more force on force than what is done today (or at least, they keep it much more behind closed doors) - even force on force that was meant to be training not for combat, but for dueling and later, shiai.

    So perhaps the question is not "Is free practice in koryu possible," rather "do many koryu do free practice any more?"

  7. #22
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    Josh,

    I can clearly relate to number two, straight on!
    Steffen Gjerding
    Kakudokan dojo

    Yup, lousy english

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    Josh, interesting posts. I think we started this thread off on the wrong foot, without having worked out exactly what kata and shiai are.

  9. #24
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    If we were free to do as we please without prior arrangement with our opponent someone would be seriously hurt. A prior plan to do a waza still gives one the element of doing it well and fast testing the skills of the other on how quick he can respond. A lot of koryu plan on attacking unprotected areas, others attack predefined protected areas.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Hyaku, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was led to believe that Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu had free-practice at a high level (Aikuchi Roppo, both partners have fukuro shinai, Uchidachi attacking with Daito, Shidachi defending with Nito). Not exactly sparring, but free responce to random long sword attacks. I've seen it mentioned in some of the branches, but not from Iwami Soke or on your site, from memory, so I'm not sure if it is present in the mainline Ryu.
    With Respect,
    Chris Parker.

    兵法二天一流剣術 Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    天真正伝香取神道流兵法 Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    熟練道場武道兵法 Jukuren Dojo Budo Heiho (www.budomelbourne.com)

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    Now when you get into the Edo period obviously men didn't have much battlefield experience. And there is certainly evidence that systems with free sparring became more and more popular and successful as the Edo period progressed. But - and please continue to take my thoughts with many grains of salt - I bet you dueling happened quite a bit. Centralized, vertical autocracies with laws that offer harsh punishments for offenses usually don't enforce those laws with great uniformity, and societies have a tendency to take care of things that need takin' care of away from the eyes of the law.
    I couldn't agree more. To me the argument of : "This was a police state, duel was outlawed, so no duel" doesn't fit. All research in pre-industrial western societies tend to indicate that harsh punishments had very poor results on criminal activities and even more so on dueling. Lets take for example France.

    In the 17th century, Louis XIV outlawed dueling "once and for all". This was punishable by death, no prison (actually prison time didn't existed in those days, you were guilty: some imaginative punishment would be devised). A dead man recognized guilty of a duel he didn't started in Quebec in the 18th century was dragged face down behind a cart and then thrown in a local dump. And not only that but your family would even be punished (destitution, mostly). No matter who started the duel or who died. In that case, its pretty simple: you fight it off outside of public spaces, if someone dies or is seriously injured, you hide it, and you can be sure that both families will make everything in their power to help you do that, no matter the outcome.

    And not only that, but the authorities are caught between enforcing the law, and punishing a way of living which was still highly regarded by many. The classic Chushingura case I think exemplified that dilemma well enough in feudal Japan. I can't believe it was an isolated case, but it only catch attention because of its dimension.

    And so you have French official statistics showing a considerable diminution in dueling (makes the government look very efficient) while examining coroner reports and unofficial documentation actually shows that dueling became even more popular than before the law was enacted...

    It is a basic mistake to take an historical rule and believe it was really applicable or effective (If you want to know more about that, you will have to visit the exhibit we are putting up on the oldest prison in Canada at the Morrin Centre in Quebec City: shameless plug mode off ).

    And then the police system, even the meanest and hardest of them all, was inefficient. Badly paid, corrupt under equipped and understaffed, most of them could not keep order even in reduced areas. Thanks to the inexistent scientific investigation, most crimes went unpunished and the re-offender rate was astronomical. Now imagine in one of the most densely populated country in the world like Japan was at the time....

    Given that Japan conditions were the same (I don't know, but I have a hard time believing the contrary) I do not think that thousands of fencing schools could have taught only fancy methods of enlightenment. Maybe in some areas, but seeing how these methods were designed the same way as some fighting methods of Europe's medieval period (who were not made for personal growth), it is clear that some practicality was at play.

    Here is an article form the New York Times in 1890 that seems to indicate that no successful measures had been taken before 1889 concerning duels: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...DC405B8085F0D3

    It seems people today still get arrested under that same rule: http://my.opera.com/rubashov/blog/20...eling-in-japan

    As for shiai and kenjutsu, I really believe it must have played a bigger part in many ryu ha than it does today. I think the place was simply given, for good or bad, to kendo. And that some practices were removed simply because they were thought too dangerous. Simply look at Maniwa Nen Ryu, who only recently replaced their bokuto for a shinaļ during randori.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parker View Post
    (Aikuchi Roppo, both partners have fukuro shinai, Uchidachi attacking with Daito, Shidachi defending with Nito)
    I believe that aikuchi roppo in the seito line of Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu is yawara/jujutsu based, and is focused on a more kogusoku approach. Hyaku may be able to shed more light than me though. I ain't that far down the line yet!
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
    I believe that aikuchi roppo in the seito line of Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu is yawara/jujutsu based, and is focused on a more kogusoku approach. Hyaku may be able to shed more light than me though. I ain't that far down the line yet!
    Yep, that would make more sense considering the name, so far the only references I've seen to it (Aikuchi Roppo) are from the Gosho-ha branch, who describe it as I've given above. Oh, that and Wiki, of course.....

    I'll wait and see what Hyaku has to say, if it's something for public consumption, that is.
    With Respect,
    Chris Parker.

    兵法二天一流剣術 Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    天真正伝香取神道流兵法 Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    熟練道場武道兵法 Jukuren Dojo Budo Heiho (www.budomelbourne.com)

  14. #29
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    Hehe that article should be renamed Gosho-pedia...
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Chouinard View Post
    I couldn't agree more. To me the argument of : "This was a police state, duel was outlawed, so no duel" doesn't fit. All research in pre-industrial western societies tend to indicate that harsh punishments had very poor results on criminal activities and even more so on dueling. Lets take for example France.
    If anybody in this thread has not yet read Musui's Story then obtain a copy right now. It is a hoot and a fun, quick read. It also gives a picture of late Edo period Edo where basically the stern, autocratic legislation that governed people's conduct simply made everyone take care of the economic matters of life do so without bothering the authorities about it. Dueling was probably something that ALMOST happened until the family and friends of both parties managed to smooth things over, quite a bit more than it happened. But it seems pretty obvious that if two men had a difference to settle, the authorities did not generally provide the most expedient or efficient way to settle it.

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