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Thread: Free practice in koryu: is it possible?

  1. #76
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    65 next month and probably back to the health I had 20 years ago
    That's outstanding! I am very glad to hear that retirement seems to agree with you!
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  2. #77
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    Thats fantastic! Some decline when they retire and some flourish, 1-0 to the latter.
    Steffen Gjerding
    Kakudokan dojo

    Yup, lousy english

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefffen View Post
    ...if kata is enough for a man on man sword fighting scenario is good enough. If that prepares you enough.
    That is always an interesting question given the fact that in a classical view kata are indespensible for (starting) learning and maintaining the art in a narrow (technical) but also wider (philosphical) perspective.
    I think Dave Lowry in his book 'sword and brush' his view on kata practise is quite a view you can find amongst practisioners of traditional (sword) arts.
    That goes for the part on the subject kata training in Karl Friday his book 'Legacies of the Sword' as well. Both books i enjoyed reading more then once.

    On the other hand through my own experience with sparring the way we do in our school I have also found interest in exploring other schools where pattern practise through kata & kumitachi is learned. I use it as inspiration and research material for my own understanding of concepts in swordmanship. Needlessly to say I think outside these traditions and therefore have not the same reference as for example someone inside these traditions who surely will appreciate and understand the inner-world of kata training which indeed is mystifying for outsiders, I guess for more then one reason.

    From my point of view Free sparring is a tool for honest development. It gives direct feedback in relation to another human being and kata does simply not, no matter what the philosophy behind kata training is, it is not a direct interactive experience with another soul. That said I also realize that in a way sparring is equally abstract as kata practise. Simply because the conditioning of a real occuring life threatening situation with blades weapons involved is difficult to simulate and even if simulated well (someting like the escrima matches of dog brothers, or Toyama Ryu matches with blunt shinkens for example) then still the reality of the moment, or to act properly in the moment is another story when really fight/run for your life. I think therefore the therm 'assault' is always more appropiate then the therm 'fight' when reality is involved, in the past and present.

    I think it is a universal wish that if you practise something, you want to enjoy it and see progression. Wether it is just sparring or just kata training, both have their parameters (internal or external) for measuring development. And both ways can have that extension to personal development. That last sentence is important because it seperates budo from martial art practise. Wether you kick your opponent around or hit him with a practise sword, or on the other hand you can perform all subtilities involved in kata expression solo or with partner if it is not connected with the wish for personal development (practically in daily life or and spiritually) through your physical endeviours then I think you are practising (competitive) sports or an (preserved) artform outside reality. But the question should be can you make that connection?

    So in this light to compare kata vs sparring depends on the goal modern practisioners have. If one's mind is set in traditions of the past he can find all the reasons not to spar or think outside the patterns laid down before him. Simply because his teacher tells him to do or not to do. You follow in the footsteps and pray after millions of repetitions after a lifetime long you will become a master through copying, adapting and transform it and finally become authentic within tradition.

    And don't get me wrong, I dont say this way is not right. It just an option for one can enter who is interested in cultural aspects of the art. But I also think that if you are really trying to develop yourself in a more direct way without any need to feel preserving (exotic non western) cultural heritate or any sword tradition then sparring experience is absolutely needed. Or at least one you should look after if you feel there is more to discover and you feel your authenticy as human and modern swordsman is better off without a framework that demands certain stearing from above.

    In modern coaching for example with topsport the views on integration of mental and physical processes continue to this day to develop. If you would dive into this you will probably find out that kata training or solo (sword) training alone are viewed as inadequate. I am not talking about the benefits of tanren in martial arts, but about the pattern training that is unchallenged in modern times. Moreover the views on interpretation on seperate movement-technique by deduction has changed as well.

    I think it is obvious that conserving a swordart rules out any progression in views on dialectics. History or Science is often abused to create authority on many subjects. I am convinced my own views on martial arts is very subjective through my own experiences and findings. The chosing for kata or sparring is simply speaking a matter of taste instead of a polarity. Of course you can do both but from where i stand now i see they interfere instead of complementing. But my question to myself will always stay: Why do I train Bu Do. And following that one up I ask myself what tools do I need and who is my authority. I hope i never find the answer completely cause I do not care for creating another religion.

  4. #79
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    Can I ask what sword art you study/participate in sparring in?
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtlanticDrive View Post
    It gives direct feedback in relation to another human being and kata does simply not, no matter what the philosophy behind kata training is, it is not a direct interactive experience with another soul.
    *Puts on Morpheus glasses*

    What if I told you, you could lose in a kata that you are supposed to win, and win in a kata you are supposed to lose?

    *Offers red pill and blue pill.*
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

  6. #81
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    You think that's koryu you're living and breathing?
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
    Can I ask what sword art you study/participate in sparring in?
    Dear Scott,

    The sword art I study is called Buken.

    Kind regards,

  8. #83
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    Buken? What ryuha is it based around? Can you tell me more about it?
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
    You think that's koryu you're living and breathing?
    Absolutely not, since I train for my own development and not wanting to be the conservator of any old preserverd art or being a part of japanese folklore while i am not Japanese. However i am always inspired by other arts outside my scope wether that be named koryu or not.

    To come to a closure to this topic, in my opinion Free practise in koryu is not desired since though you may live and breath your koryu beliefs to a certain extend you and I live in a civilized world where we have to abide the law just like any other human being.

    Generally I think that if institutions decide that development does not bite preservation there might be a chance of free sparring though I am the first to admit sparring is of course an abstraction in itself just like kata training. If we want to do something practical we better learn someting that might be really useful and I guess that is not swordmanship that is why it is healthy that all the sword mantra stays a hobby instead of taking the word koryu in my mouth while choking.

    Kind regards,

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
    Buken? What ryuha is it based around? Can you tell me more about it?
    Dear Scott,

    Maybe in the meantime you red my previous post. It is not koryu. It was developed out of Genwakai karate that had also an iaido curriculum.

    We have a website but unfortunately it is in dutch only. www.kenshinkai.nl

    Kind regards,

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer View Post
    *Puts on Morpheus glasses*

    What if I told you, you could lose in a kata that you are supposed to win, and win in a kata you are supposed to lose?

    *Offers red pill and blue pill.*
    Dear Josh,

    I am not sure which pill was the right one! If there is any

    However I admire the focus one can have in kata and lose or win within. But my personal experience is that a real life opponent who does not move inside the framework of kata or fixed positions and fixed transitions between them is still harder to deal with.

    Kind regards,

  12. #87
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    My koryu 'living/breathing' comment was a fun jab at Josh's previous post.
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtlanticDrive View Post
    Dear Josh,

    I am not sure which pill was the right one! If there is any

    However I admire the focus one can have in kata and lose or win within. But my personal experience is that a real life opponent who does not move inside the framework of kata or fixed positions and fixed transitions between them is still harder to deal with.

    Kind regards,
    And my personal experience is that kata do not have fixed positions and fixed transitions.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer View Post
    And my personal experience is that kata do not have fixed positions and fixed transitions.
    It's often a surprise to people whose experience of "kata" is from only beginner- and intermediate-level karate-do that kata in koryu arts is different in that respect.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
    My koryu 'living/breathing' comment was a fun jab at Josh's previous post.
    oh sorry Scott misunderstood you here.

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