About GYAKU WAZA, KANSETSU WAZA, KATAME WAZA, and other WAZA...

[Nightmare123]

Gyaku Waza - What is exactly this?

Hi, how are you?

I kinda understand this as techniques of control, but I'm not sure about is classified, for example:

- Wrist control techniques are Kote Gaeshi, they are many kinds of Kote Gaeshi variants and can give a number for classification like Kote Gaeshi #1, Kote Gaeshi #2, etc. Is this correct or how do you work with Kote Gaeshi?.

- Techniques that apply pressure over articulations are Kansetsu Waza, does this Kansetsu Waza integrated Gyaku Waza as a Control techniques?

- Does Kansetsu Waza has it variants like Kote Gaeshi and are refered with given numbers (#1, #2, #3, etc.)?

- How about Ikkyo, Nikyo, Ude Garami, and others.

- How many or at least what are the principal classification for Gyaku Waza techniques?

- Now, Is Katame Waza all the lock techniques on the ground?, if so, a complete sequence of a defensive action will be like starting with Atemi waza, then using Gyaku Waza or Nage Waza, and finally end with Katame Waza, right?

Kinda confused about it, I want to know how a Martial art use this kind of Waza (techniques) classification.

I don't wanna start inventing names for techniques I don't know where it comes or where it resides.

I hope I don't confuse you , just any information you can provide to me to understand more this system of Waza.

Thanks and have a nice day!

[Guy Buyens]

From your questions, I have the impression that you come from an aikido background and not a jujutsu background. Any-way here are some of my reflections (for what it’s worth).

People are confused mainly because they are prisoner of their classification. Many of the basic names (in traditional KATA you might find more sophisticated names) are originally descriptions in Japanese used to explain to students what to do.

In daily Japanese, GYAKU (逆) is used in any situation to refer to the opposite. In many BUDO, GYAKU is the name of the techniques that consist in manipulating joints into movement counter (GYAKU) to their normal range of motion.

KOTE GAESHI or returning the forearm is a common technique, present in many jujutsu schools but also for instance in aikido and Shorinji Kempo. Each school has its approach in how to optimally return the forearm and some styles have different ways (up to them to refer to as #1, #2,…). Some styles also have KOTE ORI (breaking the forearm) which is another approach when dealing with the arm of an opponent.

KANSETSU WAZA are joint techniques. So in some schools this is the same as GYAKU WAZA, since you have to manipulate the joint against their normal range of motion in order to cause damage or pain.

Ikkyo nikyo and sankyo are teaching levels or doctrines (you can find this in Shinto, Buddhism and Confucianism). In budo, they sometimes refer to teaching levels (as such they are part of aikido's teaching, probably as an heritage from daitoryu aikijutsu but I am not an aikido expert, so ask your teacher).

The name KATAME WAZA can be found in judo and some jujutsu schools but also in aikido. Depending on the school they can be different but in essence their purpose is to immobilize opponents.

Of course schools give names to their techniques (and as a member of a certain school, it is necessary to understand "what" is called "what" in your school) but that doesn’t mean that other schools can’t use the same name for another technique. Mostly the idea between the techniques will be the same.

The discussion on how to use techniques is a totally different one. Your sequence of a defensive action starting with Atemi waza, then using Gyaku Waza or Nage Waza, and finally end with Katame Waza is only one possible sequence.

To better understand what is expected from you, there is only one way, ask your teacher. If you are seeking for aikido advice then there might be other places to post this threat.

[Guy Buyens]

Gyaku Waza
Kinda confused about it, I want to know how a Martial art use this kind of Waza (techniques) classification.

Rather than starting the same tread on different forums and get even more confused by different classifications, may-be just enjoy watching the different gyaku-waza or katame waza approaches out there:

From your questions I guess you have a judo or aikido background, so have a look at Mifune (judo):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korAy...layer_embedded

or Gozo Shioda (aikido):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIx6q...eature=related

or have a look how Kote gaeshi is done in Shorinji kempo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr57jBuc6B0

I am not a judoka nor an expert in Aikido but I am a big fan (unfortunately only by watching video) of masters like Mifune and Shioda. This is what Gyaku waza is all about and it fits very well with what my teachers tell me, so no reason to get confused.

[Nightmare123]

Hi Guy Buyens

Thanks for your help, I have Ju-jutsu background mostly, though I have trained with some Aikidoka, so I have learn some from them, also I have saw how these different martial art are very alike, mostly in the techniques classification and naming, Ninjutsu, Judo, all of them, not very different. So that's why I want to learn all of they categorisation styles, to see if I can make my own. The techniques are what is more important anyway, naming is only school and art styles, I can even name them in my own language, as in some schools I have trained, because as you said, "names are originally descriptions in Japanese used to explain students what to do". I think though that people should at least have some notions of some japanese martial art basic terms, in case they want to go train in Japan or read some martial arts books.

So in conclusion, I want to make my own classification, because is confusing, for example in the school I was training, Kansetsu Waza was refered as techniques of "elbow dislocation", but Kansetsu Waza seems to be more than just that, more like "Joint locks", and Kote Gaeshi, Ikkyo, and so, should be in that techniques inside Kansetsu Waza, or at least that's how I see.

P.D. I posted this questions in other forum as well willing to get more opinions, I wish I didn't insulted the people in the forums here and there. I appreciate all your contributions, I read them very carefully, really helps me a lot.

Thanks again.
Regards.

[Guy Buyens]

I posted this questions in other forum as well willing to get more opinions, I wish I didn't insulted the people in the forums here and there. I appreciate all your contributions, I read them very carefully, really helps me a lot.

Hi Juan,

You didn't insult me (I hope my tone didn't suggest this) but it is just difficult to follow a discussion held in different places.
You have a point that clarifications can help people to understand the name of the techniques and as such I like to contribute (again for what it's worth) in the discussion.
Concerning classification, I have a different opinion. As I see it, this should be done on a school/style basis and it is up to the school to organize its curriculum. A new classification beyond the different schools/styles might even enhance confusion.

[Nightmare123]

Hi

Thanks, yeah this is more the Dojo choice and procedure, but you know many of my training partners likes to naming the techniques in a funny way and making everyone to get accustomed to their joke names, but don't worry I'm there to clean their mess

Thanks again,
Regards

[Guy Buyens]

many of my training partners likes to naming the techniques in a funny way and making everyone to get accustomed to their joke names

This is unthinkable in a koryu (at least in my experience) . Although I believe humor is very important in life, it is more prominent outside the dojo (i.e. outside the keiko time). In the dojo there can be place for humor but then usually situational and always balanced with seriousness and with respect to the school and certainly not vis-à-vis the art itself or its techniques. Dojo (and even school) etiquette is part of what we do.

Another distinction that is important to us, is the difference between humor and cynism. If there is a need to be constantly cynical towards the style that one is adhering to, then it is may-be time to move on.

I have no experience in modern jujutsu but I thought that some of the philosophy of the older schools was maintained otherwise it would be better to call it selfdefence or so.

Probably the situation you describe is much more innocent, in that case just ignore my remark.

[Nightmare123]

Hi

Many of these guys didn't stay too long though, I guess you move on when you start to lose respect on the dojo and all, I myself not training there anymore, is a Miyama-Ryu Jujutsu based, sensei is 4th dan in Miyama-Ryu & Kito-Ryu Jujutsu, 5th dan in Yamabushi-Ryu Jujutsu, 4th dan in Aikido & Aikijutsu, and well many others arts as well, to be honest I don't believe it, at least not all, he has skills and knowledge I'm sure, but anyway that's another stoty.

Now I'm training by myself, I'm looking if there's possible to attend to some seminars around the world that won't cost too much, but right now I have to much responsabilities in my own life, so right now I'm training alone.

Many thanks,
Regards.