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Thread: Katame waza in Koryu Jujutsu

  1. #31
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    I think we are basically on the same wavelength; but our recognition of the sickness is similar yet diagnoses differ in one key respect.

    I agree re: lack of realism: my belief is that the reason they are not realistic are the same reasons you put forth - they cannot be trained realistically because the majority are not putting the effort in to develop the skill to begin to train them realistically.

    I DO think kata are supposed to end up as combative simulation: they represent a progressive cycle of training that should ultimately be almost freestyle in essence - and back to the start. Wayne Muromoto's article on tea ceremony on his blog is an excellent illustration of this.

    I personally feel that I learned a lot about what kata are supposed to be when I began getting much deeper into force on force tactical and combatives training.

    I totally agree that due to the nature of combat sports, within the MA paradigm the latter tend to do this better. I believe this is because TMA has allowed this aspect to be almost completely co-opted by combat sports. I don't think it used to be like this, I don't think there was the division there is now.

    The primary TMA shortcoming today is lack of antagonistic/competitive training. TMA may be "kata only" today but I don't even a reading of history supports that, at least for jujutsu.

    NOT just classical jujutsuka doing Judo, but doing their own ryu against judo (and sumo, and other ryu....) under competitive conditions - whether just in the dojo or in a taryu jiai format.

    We have enough sources that tell us that Takeda, Ueshiba, and their classical forebears in various ryuha (all the "beat the sumotori" stories....) did so - and did gekken with grappling - that it is rather surprising to not see a balancing focus on similar resistive grappling practice alongside the "internal power exercises" hysteria within the IP movement.

    The grappling is what paints the eyes on the proverbial dragon, so to speak...

    Since the earlier practice was mixed, with all types of grapplers then, it should work now under Judo, BJJ, wrestling, submission grappling, and any other rules or lack thereof. All those other things DO adapt to each arena.... there is no valid reason that with the variety of technique shown in just the videos linked here that Daito-ryu, or many other ryu, cannot have many of its techniques practiced in a freestyle format - from an in-house practice to even competing in open sumo to submission grappling tournaments. Many of the techniques shown are completely legal in Judo, BJJ, and sub grappling tournaments today.

    I would argue that this is the missing link in TMA, the role that actually grappling has in developing body power in grappling arts. Not that just anybody grappling will develop it, but those mindful of it need to develop it in exercises and then test it in actual resistive practice to hone it.

    This is in fact the way it used to be practiced when TMA weren't traditional.....kata is one wheel of the cart - combat and competition the other. Perhaps some of the mixing we see is because people have to go to Judo or whatever to get it because it is no longer practiced within much of traditional jujutsu.
    Last edited by Hissho; 14th July 2011 at 09:15.

  2. #32
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    This topic has some good and interesting stuff going on in it.

    Nathan, I liked tomoenage a lot in judo. I would often use it in combo with hizagaruma. I would try the hizagaruma and if I didn't get that I would just keep my throwing leg up and plant it in their gut and push with the foot and pull with the arms. Once I created the kuzushi it was very hard for them to spin out of. I won a lot because of that combo. Even when people know its coming it is hard to deal with. If they moved the wrong way to escape hizagaruma a haraigoshi was also very easy to set up without putting the leg down.

    That demo at Tokyo Budokan was very hard for us. That was after 5 straight days of Daito-ryu at 8+ hours a day. I guess that was the cap stone of the training. We had to keep it very short, too. That worked in our favor

    Kit, I think Daito-ryu does work well in judo and BJJ. I have been able to pull Daito-ryu waza off in both situations. It is hard to play within the rule set of another art but it can be done. Even non-waza stuff has helped me. I have much better posture than I used to when I did judo. This is a direct result of the Daito-ryu and Jikishinkage-ryu. Many judoka and most BJJ guys hang off of you trying to pull you down or drag on you to wear you out. This gives you their weight very easily and makes it easy to toss them around.

    I think that sumodo is a great art to go with Daito-ryu and is honestly better than judo or BJJ for Daito-ryu purpose. I think the power generation and even the kimarite are closer technically.

    Its funny you mention the "beat the sumotori" stories though. It seems like back in the day rikishi represented the ultimate challenge. Even into the pre-War era rikishi were a huge challenge. The story of Ueshiba and Tenryu comes to mind because many of the IP people cite that as an important reason for their training. Ueshiba v Tenryu: Tenryu can't push him over and Ueshiba has his way with him. While I love sumo and I think it has some serious advantages for training and conditioning, Akebono in MMA is a prime example of the limited nature of the art (and maybe even a good case study of the limited nature of combative sports in general if they aren't trained alongside something more combative or with a different mindset). It is a sport with a very limited rule set. It focuses on a handful of concepts and in the modern era the technical expertise is even more limited (could you imagine Shumoku-zori in the pros?!?). You can see on the Nihon Sumo Kyokai website next to each rikishi what kimarite they've used and how often. It isn't more than a handful of kimarite and yorikiri dominates the wins. Akebono was a beast of a rikishi. His size alone made him a difficult opponent. I would argue Tenryu was not the rikishi Akebono was. Akebono got it handed to him when he did kickboxing or MMA. It isn't hard to understand how Tenryu could be beat by a more technically competent fighter like Ueshiba. This goes back to what you said, "because they don't know the technical means to escape." When I do some Daito-ryu locks on new people I meet they have no clue what to do and just suffer the pain. Many don't even know how to move with it to relieve some of the pressure.

    I think kata training is very misunderstood and done like a dance in so many places. In Jikishinkage-ryu my own teacher is able to intensify the level of the kata so much that I feel the same dump I would get if I was doing something like judo in a tournament. Since learning about the *right* way to do kata (at least in Jikishinkage-ryu) we have added some of that to our Daito-ryu and it makes it much more worthwhile (not to say we were doing it wrong or weak before but we have been able to add even more to it). It should be intense and focused and it should cause stress. Doing kata, if I'm not dripping sweat by the end of the class I've been doing something wrong!
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  3. #33
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    That what's I'm talkin' 'bout, Chris!

    You are finding it working because you are doing it, finding out how your art works in those environments, learning and adapting from those experiences, etc. Growing your own understanding of the art. That is how fighting arts are trained.

    To recap in far fewer words my previous posts: the approach of many traditional artists seems to be "If I concentrate on developing my kata, I will be better..."

    or

    "If I concentrate on developing my hara, I will be better..."

    ...when among the best ways to develop kata and hara is randori!

    It does not have to be "sport." But the abilities will carry over to competition or combat.


    RE: sumo - no doubt its probably been diluted, just as goes judo and all the other arts we're talking about! And the latter do not have the added problem of corruption as a professional sport.

    I do think the Akebono example is misplaced: many a kickboxer, BJJ-er, wrestler, and judoka has been trounced in MMA simply because they could not adapt to a different range or style of fighting: that issue can be too mixed between style/training method/fighter to be a telling benchmark.

    It seems that old school sumo had a greater variety of techniques, training styles -even village styles like one legged and "hiza zumo" which leads down some fascinating musings re: suwari waza and aiki, koryu jujutsu, and even BJJ's habit of starting from the knees - once again more commonality demonstrating that your experiences with other grapplers should be far more common within the traditional jujutsu community.... and that there was more "style" mixing in terms of competition back in the day. I don't know that this means an older version of MMA with strikes, rather more like mixed folk wrestling (sumo and jujutsu) events.

    Most of the "tests" that are spoken of from the days of yore seems to follow this format. As does the training and the self-reported examples we read about on-line - they are grappling based.

    We can't blame them for not having modern MMA; their MMA seems to have been more weapons and grappling (kinda like Dog Brothers today?), another realm in which Takeda made his mark, no??

    Modern submission grappling is perhaps a better venue for aiki/classical jujutsu to be tested. I think many classical artists would blanch at that, and find sumo more amenable due to its pedigree. There is a degree of snobbery there, and a degree of fear of the unknown.

    Like sumo, sub grappling does not use the dogi in the idiosyncratic ways that Judo and BJJ tend to, so that is a plus. But hey, it might be legal to wear fundoshi - they cover more than those grappling speedos do!!!
    Last edited by Hissho; 14th July 2011 at 17:17. Reason: Readability/clarification

  4. #34
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    I agree the best way to test what you are doing is in a free or freer environment. I think you and Nathan have one of the best free environments to train in. You figure out very quickly what works and what doesn't. The one danger I see with rolling and other live training is that many students will cut something out if they cannot figure out how to get it to work within a reasonable amount of time. I think kata is a very complex method of study and there are many things that are not readily applicable, easily understood, or even relevant in today’s society that are still part of the whole and should be preserved with the art. I think this is one of several sources of watered down arts like most American jujutsu schools.

    Sumodo does have its troubles doesn’t it? I think a lot of the watered down technical stuff has to do with the shear size of the rikishi now a days. Historically many of the “large” rikishi pre-War weren’t much larger than I am (maybe 50 to 100 lbs heavier). A 250 to 300 lbs man can get some of the more rare throws off. With a 400 lbs man it isn’t gonna happen.

    I understand your point about Akebono, but it also was where I was going with it. Tenryu was faced with a very new and different fighting style compared to what he was used to. Ueshiba knew some sumodo and knew enough about it to know what would confuse or stop Tenryu. Most people have no idea what to do when you sankyo them or nikyo them the first time. I imagine Tenryu hadn’t seen such exotic locks before. Even the pushing is a different game. Sumodo you push upwards to raise the other rikishi and make them lighter. If Ueshiba was sitting down Tenryu is pushing in a direction he likely would never have pushed in and thus grounding Ueshiba even more (sort of like the Tohei stuff).

    “I think many classical artists would blanch at that, and find sumo more amenable due to its pedigree. There is a degree of snobbery there, and a degree of fear of the unknown.”

    You may be right with some people. I know a lot of koryu snobby sort of people. “Please don’t get any of your MMA, Greco-Roman, boxing, whatever in my koryu.” It sort of reminds me of when I was a kid, I didn’t like my veggies to touch anything else on my plate. I mean I did have a point veggies are gross and why on earth would I want them to touch my steak or chicken? I still don’t like veggies! Another reason that I think a lot of people try not to mix MMA and koryu or TMA is because of the effort it takes to separate them and the chance of mixing themselves up. Two different operating systems. I try to keep all of the arts I do related to the same family. Daito-ryu, Jikishinkage-ryu and sumo (once in a while), they are all arts Sokaku studied (I’ve been exposed to Itto-ryu and would love to do some Hozoin-ryu one day, too). I have a bunch of different koryu within an hour drive from me (something like a dozen or so different ryu!). There are some that I like a lot but they don’t mix well. I feel like some people don’t want to mix themselves up too much. If you train conflicting patterns who knows what you’ll get when it comes out?

    I like the idea of hiza-zumo. I might try that out in class this week. We’re working on idori stuff now, maybe it’ll help my guys get used to the knee stuff more? Do you have any rule-set info on it? Some of the folk wrestling stuff is very interesting. I’ve always loved Highland wrestling, too. Any excuse, to wear a kilt! BTW, Stillwater Kilts has a Thrifty Kilt model that is a 4 yard Velcro kilt (no buckles or straps to land on) that are cheap ($30) and good for Highland wrestling (for those interested in that sort of thing).
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  5. #35
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    Not to disrupt the entirely interesting discussion at hand here, but regarding Akebono in MMA, I think he's very much a bad example. Akebono retired in 2001 because his knees were in terrible shape. Needing income, he started participating in K-1 and MMA in 2003, at age 34. He was already battered from years of punishing sumo (open-handed strikes, full body checks by men of great mass, and throws onto or off of a hard, dirt dais), had a two year lay-off, and was moving from a sport where one minute is an eternity to one with three minute rounds. It would have been amazing if he'd done decently.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, þonne he æt guðe gengan þenceð longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearað. - The Beowulf Poet

  6. #36
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    Hi Josh,

    Thanks for joining in. You might be right that Akebono isn't the best example but many rikishi try out for different sports besides combat sports and still do poorly because of their ingrained habits and assumptions that their size and skill in the dohyo will carry them over elsewhere. How many rikishi make it in the NFL (none so far) compared to the number that try out for it? Wakanoho after he got booted out of the country is trying to play football for a small private college in Florida. He tried out with the 49ers and was pathetic. He thought that he'd be a great lineman just because he can push really hard from a squat. Please don't get me wrong I think sumodo is awesome and I have a great deal of respect for the rikishi and the life they live but I don't think they make the best skilled fighters outside of the dohyo nor do I feel their dohyo skills are of much use in most other sports or environments. That was my point originally anyway. You take the rikishi out of his element and all his amassed skill become less valuable. Same with any martial art or sport. How do you think Tenryu would have faired in MMA today? Much better than Akebono?

    I feel like aikido was sort of like the BJJ of its day. No one knew what to do or how to deal with it. Everyone figured it out and now there isn't much mystery. BJJ in the first few UFC looked like magic to most of the fighters. Now even street thugs have a little bit of knowledge of BJJ/MMA. There goes the mystery. Anyway I feel like this is turning into a sumo vs. aikido vs. BJJ vs. MMA thead very quickly. Sorry for the drift.
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  7. #37
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    Default Great discussion!

    I've just gotta say, this is the best thread I've read in a long time. I think this exemplifies the existence of this forum.
    Your's in health,
    Brian Wagner
    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

  8. #38
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    Josh I think gave a great example of the "mix" including discipline and fighter that I addressed, and Chris your point was a good one as well re: technique, and lack of familiarity, I was thinking the same thing re: the advent of BJJ after your reminder.

    Nowadays we are seeing more "TMA" stuff starting to appear in MMA and even coaches like Greg Jackson are talking about the traditional stuff coming back. What's old is new.

    While the discussion does tend toward an aikido/combat sport comparison, I think that is because our frame of reference vis-a-vis this topic is conditioned by a few things:

    1) Very few traditional arts engage in a meaningful cycle of progressive force on force training that addresses a variety of opposing combative styles/encounters. This is not, in fact, the approach that many of these disciplines took when they were not "traditional." Somewhere along the line that was lost, perhaps when the arts turned traditional, and probably because, as Ellis Amdur and others have posited, vigorous young men tend to be more attracted to arts where they can actually fight.

    2) The frame of reference surrounding actual application in assailant restraint and self defensive combat (i.e. threatened death or serious bodily injury) is primarily theoretical for most martial artists without numerous real life armed and unarmed encounters of different types.

    3) For most martial artists then the benchmark of actual fighting skill is Judo/BJJ/MMA. This is why I think we see:

    a) An outright rejection of these methods as having anything to do with "real fighting." This is of course highly conditioned by 1) and 2) above.

    b) An actual appeal to the sport methods for validation, but in a backhanded way...

    That is, repeated oral and self-reported evidence of classic and modern masters that easily defeated sport practitioners (to include even in demonstration and professional teaching environments,which is highly problematic). This practice is alive and well today;

    An attempt to ascribe the success of some masters based on their "other" training (Saigo Shiro and the Kodokan is the classic example of this, the legends surrounding which pretty much torpedoed by Kano's own notes);

    By re-casting and re-defining modern definitions and parameters of these practices and terms: i.e. "We've easily handled the BJJ guy in our dojo" while skipping the mention that it's a white belt, occasional practitioner. Or calling a mix of Shotokan karate, aikido, and some high school wrestling "MMA;"

    Truth in all of this is actually somewhere in the middle. We tend to talk in these terms because of the way things are now. I suggest that they were not that way with the very men revered in "traditional jujutsu" circles today by the fact that their own traditions tell us they performed and prevailed in both competitive fighting and self defense combat realms on a fairly routine basis - that in fact their success in these formats was what made them their names.

  9. #39
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    This thread had really been highjacked from the original Katamae waza questions but it has taken on a life of its own and is very good.

    "...skipping the mention that it's a white belt, occasional practitioner." This is of course very true. I don't think it is hard to trounce a guy with just a few months or even a few years in and I would hardly consider that person a good representitive of the style. In the old days in Japan many keppan would state you could not engage in taryujiai unless you had a certain level of skill in the ryu and certain menkyo. In a commercial environment like Edo era dojo this could damage a school's reputation and the teacher's wallet! Today it might not be so important, unless someone is out there doing it "for real" and gets it handed to them.

    Something else I am weary of, although personally unwilling to do different, is playing by someone else's rules when you attend a seminar or dojo. I was raised in a way if you go to someone else's house you are mindful of their rules and customs and follow them as best you can. If they take their shoes off inside, you do the same. In a seminar you are submitting yourself to play by their rules to a certain degree. Since they make the rules, it is their game and I'm sure they are alwas going to be better at their game than I am. Stacked deck! When you go to a BJJ school they are typically going to start their free rolling on the ground not standing up. A skilled thrower could take advantage of the situation in a more free environment and keep throwing a his opponent and staying away from newaza. However if they start on the ground and do "hiza-zumo" there isn't much you can do. But since you're in their house and chose to play their game you can't complain (this is also assuming your goal is simply to win and test yourself, often you go to another dojo to learn their skills).

    Many of us do not have the chance to test out our skills like a few others on here do. Some of us only need these skills in the most theoretical of situations: home invasion, mugging, bar fight, working in Mayberry, etc. This is where experienced guys like Kit and Nathan can help out many of us with intergrating the classical stuff to modern world situations. That isn't to say we can't injure someone or hold our own, most people reading this forum can do that sort of stuff at some level. I think it is some of the real world discussion with you guys and examples of how you train, what you train and what level of success you've had with it that can be very insightful! Thank you!
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  10. #40
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    Thanks, Chris - it is a pleasure discussing all the varying facets with people who are open minded enough to think honestly about the subject.

    RE: the Stacked Deck - that is always true in the various sports; a broader point thought that venturing into that realm with a stacked deck may actually be preparation for things not commonly practiced in our individual arts, but that are in fact possible under real world conditions. No one should ever willingly start from their backs in an actual fight, but the way things are you might in fact do so - maybe you got blindsided, you tripped and fell backward over a curb, you missed a second attacker who put you down....the possibilities are endless.

    That being said, most of the stuff in those Daito-ryu suwari waza videos are completely legal in BJJ, minus the striking. In standard BJJ start position, people either

    1) pull guard - which can be handled with a pass followed up with some of the knee-pinning, abdomen riding stuff prior to strikes in classical schools...

    or

    2) reach out to connect with some part of your body/sleeve/collar. There is no reason that many of the things practiced in kata (a la the suwari waza kata video above) could not be applied freestyle. I train BJJ at a dojo that also does aikido, I see all sort of elbow and arm locks, wristlocks, and a few aiki-style throws from both standing (we mostly start standing) and suwari postures. Some of our people don't have the background in BJJ or Judo to do those throws and default to what they know, which can be quite effective.

    Which, in fact, brings us full circle to katame-waza!!


    Instead I think what there is a tendency to see when these different approaches meet is stalling. This can be glossed as "Ha! He couldn't do anything to me!!" When in fact such practice is just as dependent on sport or training rules as many of the more egregious sport examples, like bellying down in wrestling and Judo, or pulling gaurd in BJJ, or lay and pray (top or bottom) in MMA.

    If all you have to worry about is your opponent closing distance and grappling with you, and run or posture yourself to not allow that to happen, and make no actual effort to actually take him down, you are not fighting, you are "gaming" it. You simply cannot do that in a real fight where everything is open - both striking, and the possibility of the attacker to access a weapon. In sport, you see the trend with Kano's lamenting the loss of the upright stance in Judo because he wanted people to train as if strikes and weapons were involved (his own words!), and now with "non-combativity" rules. You see people run and hide or turtle up or just lay and tie someone up with no effort to gain initiative or better their position.

    This is not a measure of of success. It is harder to attempt to actually impose your will on someone else while "constantly striving for independence of action."
    Last edited by Hissho; 17th July 2011 at 20:43.

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