Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

[kokumo]

Originally posted by Aikilove
I agree that the situation is different than for Toribio, I'm just not sure how to regard them regarding the definitions for being part of this list. These three are holders of a Menkyo Kaiden in something created by M Saito and that died with him. Still I regard both Ulf and Pat my teachers (I have never trained with Paulo) and I know they regard their licences from their teacher very highly.

Here's the quick definition of Menkyo Kaiden from the Aikido Journal site.

MENKYO KAIDEN.

Certificate of advanced proficiency. Highest certificate of proficiency awarded in many traditional Japanese martial art systems.



As far as anyone knows, no higher certificates were awarded in Saito Sensei's aikiken and aikijo systems.

In that narrow scope, it would seem that there are at least three individuals who have both the right and the responsibility to award ranking in those systems.

Perhaps the anomoly is that we're looking at a subset (jo and ken) particular line (Saito) of a gendai art (Aikido) that is classified as a kobudo art in at least some quarters during the time immediately after the establishment of a koryu-style certificate system (menkyo kaiden) and the passing of the Founder of this system of licensing (Saito).

And there are all kinds of social, political and economic implications -- for many people who practice aikido in general and aikiken/aikijo in particular -- associated with whatever decisions are made by those menkyo kaiden holders.

I have actually been wondering if this thread belongs in the KORYU section rather than the AJJ section, since most of the arts referenced are actually primarily weapons arts and not AJJ, but that also gets us back to the intractable question of whether DRAJJ is classified as a koryu or gendai art. Circles within circles.

Bottom line: Saito Sensei developed a cohesive weapons curriculum and clearly designated several individuals as fully qualified to teach and grade in it by instituting the issuance of menkyo kaiden, a certification that is used in a number of koryu and across those ryu carries a range of commonly understood rights, responsibilities, and realms of authority.

Some of the questions raised turn less on the issue of the menkyo kaiden than on the issue of whether or not Saito Sensei also established an iemoto system for his teaching line(s) in aikido, aikiken, and aikijo. It is not at all clear that he did.

But the group of people certified is small enough that there's a good chance these things can be worked out among them reasonably and large enough that even if they aren't, the line might go forward.

That looks like pretty good risk management on Saito Sensei's part to me.

Fred Little

[Aikilove]

Good respons!

[Mike B. Johnson]

Jakob posted:

"These three are holders of a Menkyo Kaiden in something created by M Saito and that died with him."

Jakob???? If he awarded three Menkyo Kaiden then the art did not die with him. That's the whole point of a Menkyo Kaiden. right?

Fred, excellent post.

BJ.

[Nathan Scott]

Mr Scott,

As founder of his own tradition Obata Sensei like Saito Sensei would have the authority to issue a license to teach, correct? Where does his authority come from?

Mr. Little touched a bit on what I'm going to say in response to this question.

Shinkendo is a truly unique sword art, that is not based on any-one system. Obata Sensei is not like Saito Sensei in this regard, unless you change your focus to the Aiki-Buken art also taught by Obata Sensei - which is still a bit different from the circumstances of Saito M./Iwama ryu.

Obata Sensei is the founder AND Soke of Shinkendo, and has not shared any political or organizational affiliations with anyone for many years now. Anyone who creates an art and takes the position of founder and headmaster can theoretically issue whatever ranks they want in their art. Again though, if the founder of such an art only received a shodan in another art themselves, the ranks they issue will not draw much respect from their peers. Ranking and licensing is respected based on the issuer's previous experience and credentials (and to some degree I suppose their current ability and reputation). Obata Sensei HAS in fact received Menkyo Kaiden (or is it the equiv of MK?) in at least one of the sword arts he has studied, and has an obscene amount of ranks and credentials in addition to ability and reputation. The public COULD decide that a MK issued by Obata Sensei in Shinkendo is not worthy of that issued by some other big shot, but I really doubt that, considering the above points.

Saito M. taught "Aikido", as was taught to him by the founder of Aikido. If Saito M. considered himself the "founder" or headmaster of his "Iwama ryu", then I suppose he can issue whatever he wants, though I happen to think it is a bit odd sounding for anyone to claim to be the "Soke" of aikido except for the aikikai line. But Saito M. was at least politically affiliated with the Aikikai during his lifetime (his teacher's org), and re-organized his teacher's teachings in an attempt to preserve what he considered to be "orthodox aikido". Ueshiba M. didn't issue densho in aikido (unless you count the hiden DR look-alike pre-aikido densho in the earlier periods). He gave dan ranks. This is the difference and perspective I'm talking about.

FWIW, Obata Sensei also founded the Aiki-Buken, an "aiki" art, in which he restructured and made significant changes to what he was taught by his teacher. This art is based largely on his experience under Shioda Sensei, but Obata Sensei severed all ties with Yoshinkan years ago and is the founder and chief instructor of the Aiki-Buken. However, taking into account that he didn't "invent" the methods he teaches for the most part, the rank/shogo structure tends to follow that found in Aikido - particularly Yoshinkan. In other words, he was not issued densho in aikido, and aikido doesn't have a culture of issuing densho (outside of Saito M). So he doesn't do it either.

I guess I'm saying: breaking off and doing your own version of an existing art (line/branch) is a little different than founding your own art.

But anyway, hypothetically a student of Saito M. who had been issued... say, an 8th dan and Shihan license from Saito M., would by mainstream Aikido standards ALREADY be fully qualified to teach what he has learned - including any supplemental weapons curriculum. Why would someone need to be given "full transmission" in a supplemental area of study which is not even an "applied method" (real technique), when they have not earned the same or higher rank in the mother/core art? Again, no disrespect intended towards anyone, but to me it is the same as him awarding someone a "Menkyo Kaiden" in the supplemental "art" of taisabaki (body movement), but only a 5th dan in Aikido. Isn't taisabaki a method designed to improve aikido (the core art)?

BTW, some readers may remember the weapons scrolls that Saito M. was advertising in early issues of Aiki News/Journal. IIRC, you could learn the Iwama weapons methods via video tape if necessary and then receive some kind of scroll from him after submitting an adequate example of yourself performing them. Not a MK, but some type of hand written scroll. A bit unusual. If everyone forgot about this, I can probably dig up an old issue and scan the ad in.

I really don't mean to be attacking Saito M. or his students, as I like Iwama Aikido and his efforts to preserve aikido. But facts is facts - I personally just don't get it. YMMV.

Regards,

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Ueshiba M. didn't issue densho in aikido (unless you count the hiden DR look-alike pre-aikido densho in the earlier periods). He gave dan ranks.

He actually issued a couple of menkyo kaiden in Aikido (and one in Aiki-bo), and at least one of the Aikido ones was post-war. Still, I've never heard of M. Saito receiving any (although he may have), so your points are still valid.

Best,

Chris

[Nathan Scott]

Are you sure the densho say "Aikido"? I've never heard of Ueshiba issuing Aikido densho before. I'd love to hear more about who was issued these and what the names of the densho were.

I have heard Stan Pranin comment very clearly in his "Two Pillars of Aikido" lecture that, perhaps in his opinion, Ueshiba M. was NOT a swordsman. To him it was clear that Ueshiba's technical training was in Daito ryu, and although his name appeared as having taken keppan with Kashima shinto ryu, he had only watched the instruction maybe a dozen times or so over the course of one year. It didn't sound as though Stan had a high opinion of Ueshiba's sword skills, and I have to say that what I've seen of his weapon work hasn't impressed me either (FWIW).

[Aikilove]

uh... Nathan, what exactly have you seen of his weapon works? From what I have read about him, most budoka of his days regarded him as an incredible swordsman (even though having little formal training!), joman, jukendoman and jujutsuka specially after having observed, or felt him.
Re. Saito M: He formed an organization, Iwama Ryu. Within this organization he issued dan grades for Iwama Ryu (which included knowing the bukiwasa for that grade). He was also an aikikai shihan so one could grade aikikai for him as well. He also issued dan grades for Iwama Ryu Bukiwasa separetely (I think you had to have at least the grade below in Iwama ryu or aikikai i.e. 1st dan or more for 2nd dan Bukiwasa). In this case you had to perform the required bukiwasa techniques well enough to be able to instruct yourself it correctly. Apart from these, when Saito M. seem to have felt that the time was right he bestowed on these individuals these densho (Menkyo Kaiden or equivalent) were he regarded these peoples knowledge of the Bukiwasa part of Iwama Ryu as complete and that they could hemself teach it all. But remember, it was I believe a way for him, when the organization under him grew, to make sure that o-senseis teachings and techniques was preserved without changes (according to him).

He didn't mind people evolving and teaching personal aikido, they were welcom to grade in aikikai. But if you were graded in Iwama Ryu and taught Iwama Style then that was his control mechanism for the preservation of his aikido. Anyone could buy his books and videos but the testing in Iwama Ryu made sure that these people really knew how to perform and teach e.g. the Bukiwasa and the Riai (i.e. the connection between taijutsu and weapon).

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Are you sure the densho say "Aikido"? I've never heard of Ueshiba issuing Aikido densho before. I'd love to hear more about who was issued these and what the names of the densho were.

At least one did, the one issued to Roy Suenaka.

Best,

Chris

[Ron Tisdale]

The film 'Aiki Budo' has some of his weapons work...in particular a bokken kata. I'd love to hear the opinions of some sword folk on it. To my inexperienced eyes it was more suggestive of 'cleansing the dojo of demons' than proper sword work, which is usually done in two man kata anyway.

This is not to say that what he could do with a sword and a partner was not amazing, especially considering his background (or rather, lack of a formal background). I just think it falls more into the realm of his aikido, rather than 'proper' swordwork.

FWIW,

Ron

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Blomquist,

Anyone could buy his books and videos but the testing in Iwama Ryu made sure that these people really knew how to perform and teach e.g. the Bukiwasa and the Riai (i.e. the connection between taijutsu and weapon).

Apparently not always. Please see the following scan of page 43 from issue 78, Aiki News, 1988. These are the scrolls I wrote about previously:

Aiki no Ken-Jo no Mokuroku

It may be a bit hard to read at this size, but here are a few of the details. The qualifications are:

1) Persons who have participated in Aiki Ken and Jo training in Iwama under the supervision of Morihiro Saito Sensei.

2) Persons who have practiced th Aiki Ken and Jo in Iwama-style dojos or Iwama-style seminars.

3) Persons who have trained using the Instructional Aiki Ken and Jo video tapes prepared by Morihiro Saito Sensei.

under TESTING PROCEDURES, it says (in part):

"Persons unable to receive direct instruction from Saito Sensei or a certified instructor of the Aiki Ken and Jo may submit a video tape recording containing their examination for evaluation. Examinees who demonstrate a satisfactory level of proficiency for the level tested will be awarded an "Aiki no Ken-Jo no Mokuroku" scroll as detailed above."

under VIDEO TAPES, it says:

"Two video tapes containing th material for testing for Aiki Ken and Jo Certification prepared by Morihiro Saito Sensei are available for purchase through AIKI NEWS. See advertisment on page 63."

The ad on page 63 shows the two tapes for $75 each, or $125 for both. Not sure what the cost of the weapons scrolls were, but I'm sure they weren't free!

... But remember, it was I believe a way for him, when the organization under him grew, to make sure that o-senseis teachings and techniques was preserved without changes (according to him).

Interestingly, the ad also says "The purpose of this system is to preserve and disseminate th Aiki Ken and Jo techniques created by the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba, in Iwama in the years following World War II and later systemitized and expanded upon by Saito Sensei."

This seems to match what Isoyama Hiroshi Sensei told me, which is that he had also learned some weapon work from Ueshiba Sensei, but that Saito Sensei had added quite a bit too it. Apparently Saito Sensei and Isoyama Sensei used to train together for a number of years before having a falling out of sorts.

**

Anyway, my basic point was that, in my opinion, the issuing of Menkyo Kaiden in bukiwaza (or in Aikido at all for that matter) is odd. I've already listed the reasons why I think that is the case, and will respect your right to disagree if your opinion is different. No harm done.

As far as seeing Ueshiba Sensei's weapon work, I've probably seen everything you have, which is the O-Sensei video tapes sold by Aikido Journal, and a large number of photographs. I've also read many if not all the same articles you have, but I think your missing my point to some degree.

I'm not saying that Ueshiba Sensei could not handle himself with weapons. I think anyone with the level of mastery of martial arts that he had could pick a weapon up and fair pretty well for themselves, based on a superior understanding of tactics, timing and body movements. Being reasonably effective with a weapon (which I don't know if he was - his opponents more times than not were his students and others more junior to him in martial excellence) through experimentation and observation is not the same as being "a swordsman" (and please don't anyone bring up the Musashi thing again - I can't take any more of it. Really). The fact is, from my observation, and apparently Stan's by the way, Ueshiba Sensei was not formally trained to any significant or known level in weapons. When I was a kid, I used to swing nunchaku around like a madman, for hours and days at a time. My buddies and all watched all the Bruce Lee films, and had good fun having a go at it. I even defeated, rather effortlessly and quickly, my buddy, who had been training in Arnis sticks. But can I claim to be a "nunchaku man"? Not without getting criticized by those who have trained for years under a qualified instructor.

Also, there are bad habits people get when they are self-taught. Body movement habits. You see this kind of thing in everyone who is self-taught, and there are a few evident with Ueshiba Sensei - as hard as that is to believe.

But I think we're getting pretty off topic..

Chris, thanks for the link. For those that didn't look, the relevant text says:

"* Menkyo Kaiden (teaching license, certificate of complete mastery) in aikido, awarded by aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei, in 1961"

Was your dismissal of my saying that densho weren't issued in Aikido based soley on this one example? Just curious. I'm going to see if I can find more out about this one.

Regards,

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Interestingly, the ad also says "The purpose of this system is to preserve and disseminate th Aiki Ken and Jo techniques created by the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba, in Iwama in the years following World War II and later systemitized and expanded upon by Saito Sensei."

I seem to recall Stan Pranin saying (much later on), that this system (the video certification thing) was primarily set up in order to raise funds (I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that from somewhere).

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Chris, thanks for the link. For those that didn't look, the relevant text says:

"* Menkyo Kaiden (teaching license, certificate of complete mastery) in aikido, awarded by aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei, in 1961"

Was your dismissal of my saying that densho weren't issued in Aikido based soley on this one example? Just curious. I'm going to see if I can find more out about this one.

Regards,

No, but I don't have any really solid information about the other post-war ones (except for the Aiki-bo one issued to Hikitsuchi). In any case M. Ueshiba never really set up a coherent system for these densho, as far as I can tell, they seem to have been issued more or less according to the particular circumstances at hand. That being the case, what they actually mean is sort of up in the air - although for all that I suppose that I wouldn't mind having gotten one myself .

Best,

Chris

[Aikilove]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Anyway, my basic point was that, in my opinion, the issuing of Menkyo Kaiden in bukiwaza (or in Aikido at all for that matter) is odd. I've already listed the reasons why I think that is the case, and will respect your right to disagree if your opinion is different. No harm done.

I don't disagree with you. I was the one who brought it up remember... I only tried to answer the question that was vented around about the reason why he issued licences.

Being reasonably effective with a weapon (which I don't know if he was - his opponents more times than not were his students and others more junior to him in martial excellence) through experimentation and observation is not the same as being "a swordsman"

I wasn't refering to his direct students of little actuall arms training, but the respected teachers of traditional schools. One example that comes to mind is Sugino Sensei of TSKSR.

But I think we're getting pretty off topic..

Agreed!

[Rei Ho]

I once heard that scrolls are sometimes sold in public auction in Japan. Is this true? I don't know, so I thought I might ask. Thanks.
Tracy Crocker

[renfield_kuroda]

I buy my scrolls at the art supply shop outside of Shibuya station.

Regards,

r e n

[poryu]

Hi

I buy makimono from the japanese Yahoo auctions.

I have bought them for as little as 1000 yen. I recenty got 3 ikebana makimono for 2,500 yen.

Budo scrolls tend to sell for a lot more though starting around 10,000 yen on there