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Thread: Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

  1. #16
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    Earl,

    "Kongen no Maki", the "Scroll of Origins" (Guy, perhaps this is the scroll to which you were referring).
    You Sir, are correct, Sir. Just chalk it up to my dotage. I don't know how I replaced "Kongen" with "Tora" in my feeble mind ... but I did. Thank you for straightening me out.

    Humbly,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  2. #17
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    Earl and Colin,

    Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.
    On the inside cover of Mitani sensei's Shoukai Iai: Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is a photograph of his scroll, signed by Yamamoto Takuji. Might this scroll also be Kongen no Maki?

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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    Originally posted by Earl Hartman

    Masaoka Sensei received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi Sensei, who apparently conferred it upon between 3-6 men (the three I know of are Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.)
    Originally posted by hyaku

    Iwata Sensei and Terao Sensei (Iwata sensei's student) tell me the same as you say, that only three people received Kongen no Maki.
    On the site of Austrian practioners of Sekiguchi-ha, the lineage after Oe Sensei is given as:


    18. Yamanouchi Toyokata
    19. Kono Kanemitsu
    20. Onoe Masayoshi
    21. Sekiguchi Takaaki (Komei)

    This might be of some interest, considering an information that was posted before the crash, regarding Sekiguchi Senseis recognition as MJER Soke by an esteemed Japanese Koryu society (I don't remember which one it was).

    BTW, Sekiguchi Sensei will be teaching in Austria on September 23rd and 24th.

    However, I now have some questions:

    Does anybody have informations about Yamanouchi Toyokata?

    Does anybody know if Kono Kanemitsu (Juku Dai of Sekiguchi ha) was identical or related with Kono Hyakuren, Niju Dai of Fukui Sensei's line?

    Unfortunately Fukui Torao Sensei has passed away this year. Does anybody know if Ikeda Takashi Sensei has succeeded him as Soke of this line (Ikeda Sensei was described as Fukui Sensei's appointed successor, as far as I know). Are there any discussions about that?

    I apologize for addressing the branch line of MJER succession instead of the main topic of this thread, but I thought it's kind of fitting in here.

    Best regards,
    Robert

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    Joanne:

    In his book, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai Heiho Chi no Maki, Masaoka Sensei demonstrates all of the paired kata of MJER. There are a total of 48 of them. I don`t have the book in front of me, so I can`t remember exactly how the sets are divided up, but the ones I remember are: Tachiuchi no Kurai(standing), Tsumeai no kurai, (seated), Daishozume (daito vs. shoto) and Daikendori. I can check later.

    Anyway, it seems from what I can tell that Muso Shinden Ryu is, essentially, Shimomura-ha MJER as taught by Nakayama Hakudo, so it is not at all surprising if the same paired kata are part of the MSR curriculum.

    These paired kata are still practiced by Noda Sensei and his students in Kochi City in Shikoku (the original home of MJER) so far as I know. I assume that they are taught in some form in the other MJER lines carried on by the other Kongen no Maki holders that studied with Oe Masamichi Sensei. I know that the Jikishinkai under Miura S. includes at least the 10 Tachiuchi no Kurai in its curriculum.

    As a side note, I am under the impression from Masaoka Sensei`s book that the Tachiuchi no Kurai were either formulated by Oe S. himself or were reconfigured by Oe S. when he rearranged and rationalized ther MJER curriculum.

    Again, I defer to Hyakutake san on this issue and would be very interested in hearing any more information about this.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

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    Hyakutake san:

    Thanks for the information regarding Oe Sensei`s Kongen no Maki recipients. I look forward to any other information you can supply regarding the transmission of MJER.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

  6. #21
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    Hi Earl,

    Thanks for the info regarding the paired kata of MJER. Actually I share the same view that Muso Shinden Ryu is essentially Shimomura Ha Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu as well.

    I have a feeling the name of the set found in Muso Shinden Ryu paired kata could be the same as those taught in MJER.
    Danzaki sensei seem to list the names of the sets as Tachida no Kurai, Kuraidori,Daisho tachizume , Daisho Kyo , Tsumeiai no Kurai & Tsume no kurai. Maybe these names tally with the sets in Masaoka Sensei's book ?


    By the way has anyone heard that there was a tori-nawa(arresting with cord) component in MJER or others?

    Cheers,

  7. #22
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    MEJR is listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten as possessing Nawatori and other things. But there isn't a lot of explanation. I've got a copy of an article from a Japanese journal that I'm working on reading that delves into the history and practice of MJER, but it's slow going with my kanji skills. My suspicion is that since it was primarily a country peasant art, over the course of it's history, a lot of different weapons probably came and went from the syllabus.

    Peter Boylan

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    Default MJER scrolls and techniques etc.

    Hello all,

    Wow, lots of questions. I have put the answers to this and other threads here.

    The first Kongen no Maki was awarded by Hayashizaki Jinsuke. After him there is no clear record of who awarded what to who until after the Kyudai (Ninth head) Hayashi Rokudayu Morimasa. After him it is very clear who has received what.

    Menkyo Kaiden received within Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu to this day are known as Kongen no Maki.

    Oe Sensei formulated the Bangai Nobu.

    It is not known who formulated the Tachiuchi no Kurai as in this case the records don't go back as far as the Waza. All that is really certain is that it originated from the Shimomura-ha. I do have a video somewhere from when it was reintroduced to Japan some 17 years ago as Hasegawa Eishin Ryu

    Oe Sensei awarded a number a Kongen no Maki. However the wording in some of them is described as "ayashii" (dubious)
    I am told that the only official ones he awarded were to Hokiyama Namio and Mori Shigeki.

    The present successor of Fukui Torao Sensei is indeed Ikeda Sensei.

    Don't want to get involved in Japanese Iai politics. This information is confirmed by a Menkyo Kaiden of the Ryu. Perhaps what is more important is who is continuing the Oe Masamichi tradition and practices in his name rather than who has the paperwork. A lot of "Ha" seem to come and go. For example Oe Sensei left the Shimomura ha leaderless in becoming the head of Tanimura. But it still continues today. Politics, politics!

    On a lighter note I have discoverd that Miyamoto Musashi had probably been neutered. If I have to do anymore practice with my feet so close together I am sure to do myself a serious injury!

    Hyakutake Colin



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    hyaku,

    thank you very much for the informations.

    However - and without wanting to be involved in the politics myself, but only for personal reasons - I'm still interested in learning how Sekiguchi-ha is viewed (in terms of reputation, authenticity and legitimacy) in the Japanese Iai world outside of Komei Juku.

    If anybody is willing to share his insights regarding that, I would also appreciate a personal mail, and of course offer to handle the answer discreet.

    Thanks again,

    yours sincerely,
    Robert

    [Edited by Robert Reinberger on 09-15-2000 at 10:40 AM]

  10. #25
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    Dear Hyakutake san:

    Thank you for your reply on the subject of the Kongen no Maki.

    I also have no particular intetrest in getting involved in iai politics, and although I appreciate your information, it rasies a number of troubling questions. Unfortunately, it seems that if you do iai with a particular teacher you are involved in the politics whether you want to be or not.

    I have a number of questions, and while I realize they touch on extremely sensitive subjects, I ask them with all respect. I realize that these sorts of questions are not usually asked in Japan, but while I know that no satisfactory answer can be given, at least from my personal perspective, I feel compelled to ask them anyway. At the same time, you need not feel compelled to reply if you feel that it is inappropriate.

    The only conclusion that can be drawn from your information is that, at the very least, the person from whom you received your information is of the opinion that the Kongen no Maki that Oe Sensei awarded to Masaoka Sensei is somehow illegitimate, or, as you say "ayashii" (suspicious/dubious).

    This brings up a number of other questions, to wit:

    1) Why would Oe Sensei award a Kongen no Maki to someone who did not deserve it?

    2) By ayashii, is it meant that the scroll has been somehow falsified? If so, who falsified it and why?

    3) If the scroll has not been falsified, but is simply incomplete, what would be the reason for this? What purpose could be served by awarding an incomplete scroll? What would Oe Sensei`s motivation have been, especially since other complete scrolls had been awarded to two other senseis, thus assuring the continuation of the school?

    4) If Masaoka Sensei`s scroll was not "official", this indicates that there is some other criteria, other than the Kongen no Maki itself, that determines which Kongen no Maki were official and which were not. May I ask what these criteria might be?

    These questions are, in some way, rhetorical. As I said, you do not need to answer them if you do not want to. I have done some research on Masaoka Sensei`s life, and it appears that there was a falling out between him and the other direct disciples of Oe Sensei, which seemed to have something to do with the fact that he left Shikoku to attend the Budo Senmon Gakko, and that after the war he was instrumental in forming the iaido department under the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei, which appeared to be in competition with the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei which had been established somewhat earlier, as I understand it. In addition, Masaoka Sensei seems to have had some sort of relationship with Nakayama Hakudo (how close it was I don`t know). According to what I have read, it does seem that some MJER swordsmen who had been associated with the ZNIR left and joined the ZNKR iaido group with Masaoka Sensei shortly after it was formed.

    In any case, my efforts in this area are strictly in the service of impartial historical research. Masaoka Sensei was my teacher, and nothing will change that or my feelings about him. I only wanted to get to the truth of the matter.

    Again, thank you for your efforts.

    Yours,
    Earl
    Earl Hartman

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    Hello All,

    Interesting discussion, I read some of the post and would like to comment on the subject of viewing Makimono. Dealing with Makimono and Soke'ship is a very delicate matter to the Japanese masters. Unless a person is a long time discpile of a Shihan or a Soke of a Ryu getting answers or viewing certian documents sometime may be close to impossible. Imagine someone who you barely know ask you to show him your bank account info or even on a smaller scale to see your family photos.


    Anyhow something to think about,
    Eduard Divantman
    bufuikan@bufuikan.com
    www.bufuikan.com

  12. #27
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    Eddie Divantman wrote:

    Interesting discussion, I read some of the post and would like to comment on the subject of viewing Makimono. Dealing with Makimono and Soke'ship is a very delicate matter to the
    Japanese masters. Unless a person is a long time discpile of a Shihan or a Soke of a Ryu getting answers or viewing certian documents sometime may be close to impossible. Imagine someone who you barely know ask you to show him your bank account info or even on a smaller scale to see your family photos.
    ***********************

    Actually, it's not usually that difficult. If you have good credintials/introductions, it's often quite possible to see all but the most closely held of secrets. Many of these documents regularly get published in books and magazines. The reason for this is that there really isn't very much information in most makimono. The real knowledge can only be gained through training.

    Peter Boylan

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    Robert Reinberger asked if there was any information about Yamanouchi Toyotake. I am by no means a historian on MJER and almost all of my information comes from oral transmission, so take my information for what you feel it is worth. I practice Yamanouchi-ha Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu under Sato Yoshio of Sendai, Japan. In our tradition Yamanouchi sensei is not veiwed as the 18th soke of MJER. He received his kongen no maki from Oe Masamichi. This made Yamanoudhi sensei on of several 18th generation inheritors of the style. Now my understanding is that upwards of 10 students of Oe Masamichi recieved kongen no maki but only Hogiyama Namio was designated as the formal successor of the lineage. However in the Yamanouchi-ha there is still discussion as to whether or not Oe sensei ever really intended for their to be a single successor to the style, but for the most part the Shisui-kai (the political body of the Yamanouchi-ha) regards Hogiyama Namio and not Yamanouchi Toyotake as the 19th Soke of MJER. I am taught that regardless of political position, a holder of kongen no maki is an inheritor of the style and does have the right to award kongen no maki to his/her own students. Judging by the information that Collin and Earl have posted this seems to be the concensous of the various lineages of MJER out there today. Yamanouchi sensei had many students and awarded Kongen no maki to some of them. I would have to ask Sato sensei the names of the other recipiants in Yamanuchi sensei's dojo that recieved Kongen no maki. In our heritage Yamanouchi Toyotake is followed by Sakagami Kaneo then by Uno Mataji followed by Kawakubo Takaji and finally Sato Yoshio. There are of course several other recipiants of kongen no maki through out the Yamanouchi ha history and I would assume that Sekiguchi Takaaki's line falls in here as the Shisui-kai has a formal relationship with the Komei-kai. I hope that was at least a little bit of the information on Yamanouchi Toyotake that you were looking for.

    Regards,
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

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    Very sorry Mr Hartman

    I didn't know you had posted a message with regard to you're Sensei's certification. I like you try to keep out of the politics. I can see there are problems in the west but over here they are if anything more worse. I do know one teacher who plagued his teacher for a menkyo kaiden and in not receiving it has now joined the Sekiguchi Ryu. A lot of people who opted for the ZNKR Seitei Iai system some years ago jumped up a few dan grades.

    I have also met some self proclaimed Soke here too, who don't even practice but take the title as they consider it a family right as there father was a eacher of a particular school etc etc

    The list is endless and I suppose this has beeen going on for years and years. Hence the unanswered questions of who does what and where it comes from. I jokingly mention it to a well know Iai teacher. He said "Please don't expect too much. We are all humans". I nice comment from one of a race of people that usually uniquely think they "are unique".

    I should heve been more precise in my last post. It seems the wording on the what seems to be numerous certificates issued by Oe Sensei are different. What this wording is I don't know and I suppose no one else will ever do so unless they could get there hands on a few scrolls issued by him and get an expert to translate them.

    Again my apologies. I would not want to be the instigator a political feud. I was just trying to be helpful in passing on information from a Menkyo Kaiden of the Ryu.

    Regards Hyakutake Colin

    [Edited by hyaku on 09-29-2000 at 05:56 AM]

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    Question

    Is Uno Mataji the same person as Onoe Masayoshi? Some of these names are close enough to make me wonder if they are readings of the same kanji.

    Lineage 1 (Sekiguchi-ha MJER):
    Yamanouchi Toyotaka 18th
    Kono Kanemitsu 19th
    Onoe Masayoshi 20th
    Sekiguchi (Komei) Takaaki 21st

    Lineage 2 (Yamanouchi-ha MJER):
    Yamanouchi Toyotaka 18th
    Sakagami Kaneo 19th
    Uno Mataji 20th
    Kawakubo Takaji 21st
    Sato Yoshio 22nd (Shisui-kai)

    I believe Ohmori Masao (Rakuto Eishin Ryu) was also a student of Uno Mataji.

    Thanks,
    Jack Bieler

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