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Thread: Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

  1. #31
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    Mr. Irey,

    thank you very much for the informations you gave.

    Also thanks to the other posters, a lot of interesting contributions here!

    Regards,

    Robert

  2. #32
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    Just to make things clear if I did not previously do so, the Yamanouchi ha does not cosider Yamanouchi Toyotake to be the 18th soke of MJER. Sato Yoshio to the best of my knowledge does recognise Hogiyam Namio's line as the legitimate line of soke in MJER. All of the teachers I listed in our lineage are recipiants of Kongen no maki and none considered themselves soke. Some in the Yamanouchi ha do not recognise any soke after Oe Masamichi, but none to my knowledge make any cclaims to any of the line being soke. Uno Mataji and Onoe Masayoshi are not the same person. Uno sensei awarded 2 Kongen no maki that I am aware of one went to Yamakoshi sensei of Kyoto (whom I believe is still teaching in Kyoto and last time I visited his dojo he had 2 students practicing MJER with nodachi...quite a site to see) and the other went to Kawakubo Takaiji of Sendai. Kawakubo sensei awarded Kongen no maki to Sato Yoshio and Sato Masaki (no relation). Yamakoshi sensei has awarded Kongen no maki to Takahashi Tsunoru. Takahashi sensei teaches with Sato Yoshio and Sato Masaki in Sendai. I hope there is no confusion on the stance of the Yamanouchi ha in regards to soke of the MJER.



    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  3. #33
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    This has turned into a wide ranging discussion.

    MSR vs. MJER

    According to Masaoka S., in the hidensho (secret scrolls) of the 9th headmaster, Hayashi Rokudaiu Morimasa S. (d. 1732) the name of the school is given as Muso (Peerless) Jikiden. The Shinden Ryu scrolls were created by the 2nd generation leader of the Shimomura-ha, Yamakawa Kyuzo Yukio S.(d. 1848), and a Shinden Ryu "hissho" (secret scroll) apparently gives the name of the school as Muso (Peerless) Shinden Eishin Ryu Batto Heiho. Most people in my practice group referred to it simply as Hasegawa Eishin Ryu. In any case, it seems quite obvious that both versions of "Muso" ("Peerless" and "Dream Thought") predate both Oe S. and Nakayama S. and obviously refer to the same school. It seems quite significant to me that the Shinden Ryu scrolls were created by the Shimomura-ha, so it appears that Nakayama S. thus had a valid historcal reason for choosing that name. This also pretty much seals the case that MSR is MJER Shimomura-ha, in my opinion.

    The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten lists Nakayama S. as the 18th headmaster of the MSR, indicating that there was/is an opinion that the MSR is the continuation of an older school. If one accepts that MSR is MJER Shimomura-ha under a different name, this makes sense. In any case, Nakayama S. learned Shimomura-ha from Hosokawa Yoshiaki S. (d. 1923), the 15th generation of Shimomura-ha (15th generation in this case means 15th generation from Hayashizaki. I'm not sure how many generations he is after the split, probably four). Nakayama had approached Yukimune Sadayoshi S. (Shimomura-ha) and Oe S. for instruction but had been rebuffed since he was not from Tosa. Masaoka S. also shows Nakayama S. receiving instruction from Morimoto Tokumi S. of the Tanimura-ha, who was a contemporary of Oe S., both of whom learned from Goto Masakatsu S., the 16th generation headmaster.

    Official Headmaster vs. Kongen no Maki

    Masaoka S. never claimed to be the "official" 18th generation headmaster of MJER, and my purpose in researching this issue has never been to try to put such a claim forward. Regarding the Kongen no Maki, there is a world of difference between saying that the wording in the Kongen no Maki that Oe S. awarded to him was "ayashii" (dubious/suspicious) and saying that the various Kongen no Maki scrolls simply had "different" wording. I appreciate the input from the other iai practitioners who have provided more information regarding other Kongen no Maki awarded by Oe S. Oe S. spent his life making sure that his iai would live on in the post-Tokugawa world, which would probably account for the number of Kongen no Maki that he awarded.

    As far as I can tell from my research, there were some who believed that Masaoka S.'s iai was not pure MJER due to his relationship with Nakayama S. Nakayama S. was from Ishikawa Prefecture, and Masaoka S. lived in Kanazawa, the capital of the prefecture, for many years after his graduation from the Budo Senmon Gakko in Kyoto, and then returned there later after spending the post-war years back on Shikoku. It is probable that Masaoka S.'s iai was influenced to some degree by Nakayama S.'s interpretation of the Shimomura-ha iai that he had learned. However, from Masaoka S.'s point of view, all he was doing was researching the other branch of his own school.

    Earl

    [Edited by Earl Hartman on 10-02-2000 at 04:10 PM]
    Earl Hartman

  4. #34
    Shiga Guest

    Default Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

    Dear Mr. Smith,

    Thank you for your reply--it actually will help to clarify my question a bit.
    What I am asking about is the organization aspect.

    Lets say the honbu represents the organization, the Menkyo holder then creates a whole new organization--still the same art. Is this ever acceptable?

    Anyone have any thoughts?

    --Jesse Duran

  5. #35
    Shiga Guest

    Default Menkyo Kaiden etiquette

    Dear Mr. Smith,

    Thank you for your response--it will actually help to clarify my question a bit.
    I am asking specifically about the organizational aspect of things.

    Lets say the honbu represents the organization--the Menkyo holder (in my scenario) leaves this organization and starts a new one--same art.
    Is this acceptable in the Koryu traditions?

    Anyone have any thoughts?

    --Jesse Duran

  6. #36
    Shiga Guest

    Angry

    Looks like I pushed a few of the wrong buttons!
    My reply above was meant to be under Mr. Smith's reply on the original thread.
    Is there anyway the moderator can fix this?
    Very embarrased
    Very sorry

    --Jesse Duran

  7. #37
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    Strange...your original post, and my reply...vanished!

    Anyway, to answer your question (at least according to the style of gendai jujutsu I study, Hakkoryu) any holders of menkyo are still under the umbrella of the honbu dojo and answer to the nidai soke. If one chooses to go against honbu's rules by creating a new, separate organization teaching the cirriculum independently from honbu, or breaks other rules of honbu, they would almost certainly face expulsion (hamon). This is the result.

    It is likely that there are as many exceptions to these types of rules as there are schools/styles of Japanese martial arts. Mine's only one example.

    Devon


    whoops...now I see I replied to the wrong post!
    Last edited by Devon Smith; 26th May 2001 at 01:42.

  8. #38
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    It seems that founding an entirely new organization would be a bit insulting to the organization that granted menkyo kaiden.

    Wow, Mr. Smith..looks like the Hakkoryu doesn't mess around. I wonder, what legal recourse, if any, would they have if he used the Hakkoryu name anyway? Is it copyrighted?
    Last edited by Soulend; 25th May 2001 at 17:26.
    David F. Craik

  9. #39
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    I wonder, what legal recourse, if any, would they have if he used the Hakkoryu name anyway? Is it copyrighted?

    Yes, the name and other related items are patented/trademarked/copyrighted in the U.S.A., Japan, and several European countries.

    Devon
    Last edited by Devon Smith; 26th May 2001 at 01:54.

  10. #40
    Benjamin Peters Guest

    Question Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

    Dear members,

    Is anyone able to assist me in defining what actually the concept of passing on 'Densho' actually is (setting aside the fact that it contains technical knowledge) ?

    Is it a concept of an award (ie comes with menkyo kaiden) or just information ?

    Many people nowadays are passing on detailed notes on the levels of shoden chuden etc etc - is this still considered 'Densho' per se ?

    Ben Peters

  11. #41
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    Densho means transmission of written techniques. It is one of the ways Den (transmission) takes place. Transmission by word of mouth is kuden. Transmission from a divine spirit or deity is Shinden. Menkyo Kaiden is complete transmission of the system.

    I don't think it is so much like an award than it is simply the passing along of a ryuha's teachings, so that the receiver can practice and pass down the tradition to the next person. The kanji for 'den' is written in kanji as a composite of the words for 'rotating person'- the receiver turns and passes the knowledge to another.

    Many people nowadays are passing on detailed notes on the levels of shoden chuden etc etc - is this still considered 'Densho' per se ?
    In classical arts it is usually anything but detailed. Seemingly vague analogies and aphorisms which would be meaningless to any but initiates of that particular art are used in order to keep the teachings secret from prying eyes and ears. "The weight of the shrike bends the branch" or "The dragonfly always alights on the post" means something to one who has received densho-and perhaps Mr. Miyagi- but to others, nothing. But I suppose what you're talking about could be considered a type of Densho...
    David F. Craik

  12. #42
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    Question Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

    What do you think about supposedly koryu traditions without makimono? For example the Taura Muso Ryu that went public in 1989 claims koryu lineage, but has no makimono and they say the art was taught in secret and especially the advanced stuff was only taught from father to son (or in similar manner: to one person only in total secrecy)?

    Is it common for a koryu art to make such claims and are they usually dubious or normal?

    PS. Here's a link to their site: http://www.bujyutsu.com

  13. #43
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    Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
    Not a bad group of guys but as far as their karate goes they are not really "old" style karate.
    Yes, I know about the karate, I know a couple of people who were previously members (one of them an instructor) of Renshinkan. But I am only interested in the Taura Muso Ryu Bujutsu, which is a family art of the current head and has nothing to do with the karate (except that the man does them both).

  14. #44
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    There are ryu that don't have makimono. This just makes their veracity harder to confirm. I happen to do an iai art with no makimono. Fortunately, it's history and lineage have been open, so the lack of makimono is no obstacle to verifying it's historical claims. Not having tried to research Taura Muso Ryu, I can't make any statements in any direction about it.

    Peter Boylan
    Mugendo Budogu LLC
    Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment from Japan
    http://www.budogu.com

  15. #45
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    Question Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

    Hello all,
    I was recently re-reading the "Gorin no Sho" and the "Heiho Kaden Sho" when this question came to mind..It is not aimed at any one Ryu or group but generally..
    If scrolls like the two mentioned above were considered to be the 'Okuden' and 'secret principles' of the ryu that they were written for when and why were the scrolls allowed to be made 'public'?
    Possible reasons that I could think of was that once the feudal era ended it may have allowed them (Ryu-ha Densho) to be seen as an anachronism to the 'modern state' and ideas..losing their 'secret' use and public interest...Or possibly that the Ryu shihan/soke saw the need to more publicly 'advertise' the teachings and morals contained in them.
    To my mind the densho were the essence of the ryu and this was one of the main reasons that they were so zealously guarded by the teachers and trainees of the schools..often over Keppan, and certain promises of a slow death in hell(s). All the ryu seemed to have some form of promise to prevent te teachings being spread from the school. So what caused the change in viewpoint of those ryu that allowed their densho to be admitted into the public domain?
    Any and all insight or leads to information on this would be appreciated.
    Domo arigato!
    Abayo.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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