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Thread: Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Menkyo Kaiden holders?

    Originally posted by Mike B. Johnson

    Disclaimer!

    I realized this list does not necessarily reflect the only authorities of budo at the highest levels of experience teaching here in the USA. People like Quentin Chambers, Larry Bieri, Mike & Diane Skoss, Hunter Armstrong, Ellis Amdur, Guy Power, Don Angier, Karl Friday, Nathan Scott, Dave Lowry etc.... hold very advanced licenses or skills. They just do not possess Menkyo Kaiden licenses.

    To clear up one obvious error here, Karl Friday does have menkyo kaiden in Kashima Shinryu. I don't presume to speak for anyone else on this list, but in Karl Friday's case, the fact that he has menkyo kaiden is well published so....

    Best,
    Rennis Buchner

  2. #77
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    Hello,

    In the case of Buko-ryu there is currently no rank named "menkyo kaiden" given in the tradition however there are several Westerners who hold the top rank in the system and so I believe deserve to me mentioned.

    In the book Keiko Shokon, Nitta Suzuyo lists her students who have received teaching licenses in Toda-ha Buko-ryu Naginatajutsu:

    "The first person to whom I gave a teaching license was Kini Collins, but we have lost contact, and I believe she is no longer active in budo. All the following have teaching licenses from me: Ellis Amdur (in the U.S.), Pierre and Claire Simon (in France), Meik Skoss (in the U.S.), Kent Sorensen (currently in Japan), and Liam Keeley (in Australia). Those who teach directly under my direction are known as shihan-dai, while those who are de facto independent as head of their own dojos I recognize as shihan, and to them I have given seals with which to authenticate any licenses they may choose to issue." (Page 74)

    As those who have lived in Japan know, things are rarely black and white. A few notes of my own as in the case of Toda-ha Buko-ryu as the subject of rank becomes a little complicated:

    I was told by Nitta sensei that all of the people above have received the okuden mokuroku, a makimono listing not only all of the techniques that have been directly transmitted (i.e. the main curriculum or honden), but also the school's lineage, history, etc. She also mentioned that when she gives the makimono it means that the student has learned all she has to teach and that it is basically Buko-ryu's current equivalent of a menkyo kaiden in other systems.

    In addition, Nitta sensei awards shihan-dai and shihan license to those she allows to teach as mentioned above. It seems possible that someone could be awarded the okuden mokuroku (apparently the top technical rank) but still not be allowed to teach (i.e. not have a shihan-dai or shihan license) although I know of no one currently in that situation here in Japan although there may have been in the past.

    Claire Simon currently holds a shihan-dai license which is what I believe Kini Collins held at one time as well.

    I believe Meik Skoss is technically senior to Pierre Simon according to time in the school but Meik received his shihan license later only because Pierre left Japan and started his own dojo first. In the list above, I left them in order that Nitta sensei had listed in her interview in the book, but she most often lists Meik before Pierre in conversation.

    In addition, several of the people above have also received a makimono stating that they have learned the betsuden, or separate (reconstructed) curriculum. It is possible to have received the okuden mokuroku and become shihan without having learned the betsuden.

    Depending on where someone wants to draw the line, some, if not all of those names above, deserve to be listed here.

    Regards,

    Ron Beaubien

  3. #78
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    Hello,

    I thought I should also mention that Pierre Simon of France received menkyo kaiden in Negishi-ryu Shurikenjutsu from Saito Satoshi sensei.

    Sincerely,

    Ron Beaubien

  4. #79
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    Hello Again,

    According to his biography at Koryu.com, E-budo's very own Colin Hyakutake-Watkin holds menkyo kaiden of the Taiko Kono-ha-ryu battojutsu.

    Add him to the list as well.

    Ron Beaubien

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    Hello,

    I also forgot to mention Pascal Krieger who was also awarded menkyo kaiden in Shinto Muso-ryu by Nishioka Tsuneo sensei.

    Ron Beaubien

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    Hello,

    Lets not forget the ladies. Pat Harrington and Betty Huxley of Australia both have menkyo kaiden in Sosuishi-ryu.

    See their biographies at the bottom of this page:

    http://www.sosuishi-ryu.org/publications/

    Ron

  7. #82
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

    Default

    Okay....So here’s a preliminary list of westerners awarded licenses of complete transmission in traditional nihon budo. I’m sure there are more and as this thread proceeds I’ll update the list. At some point I’m sure a questionable entry will be offered up and I will be forced to contact someone more authoritative. I have decided to include Don Angier even though no license was technically awarded to him. The fact that his promotion was apparantly verbal and that Katsuyuki Kondo and Stan Pranin have both recognized him as the inheritor of Shidare Yanagi ryu is qualification enough for me. If anyone disagrees with this assessment please PM me and make your case.

    I have also included David Maynard of the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu after receiving an e-mail from Sensei Threadgill.

    I have not included Julio Toribio who was awarded a San Dai Kichu in Hakko ryu but was later hamoned in a disciplinary action by the Hakko ryu Hombu Dojo.

    __________________________________________________



    Asayama Ichiden ryu - James Wright

    Danzan ryu - Sig Kufferath / Tony Janovich / Bob Hudson

    Hakko ryu - Brian Workman / Ralph Verde / Steve Glaser / Gordon Kiokawa / Scott Newkirk / Tony Lamonica / Dennis Palumbo

    Iwama ryu - Patricia Hendricks

    Kashima Shin ryu - William Bodiford / Karl Friday

    Negishi ryu - Pierre Simon

    Shinto Muso ryu - Phil Relnick / Pascal Kreiger

    Sosuishi-ryu - Pat Harrington / Betty Huxley

    Taiko Kono ha ryu - Colin Hyakutake-Watkin

    Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu - Toby Threadgill / David Maynard

    Toda ha Buko ryu - Meik Skoss / Pierre Simon, / Claire Simon / Kini Collins, Ellis Amdur / Kent Sorenson, / Liam Keeley

    Shidare Yanagi ryu - Don Angier

    __________________________________________________


    BJ

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    I have not included Julio Toribio who was awarded a San Dai Kichu in Hakko ryu but was later hamoned in a disciplinary action by the Hakko ryu Hombu Dojo.
    Lets be fair here. Julio Toribio received the San Dai Kichu. He was given hamon later...which in the core Hakko ryu is as easy to receive as not sending enough money to the Hombu. He has every right to be on that list, in my opinion.
    Systema

  9. #84
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    "Lets be fair here. Julio Toribio received the San Dai Kichu. He was given hamon later...which in the core Hakko ryu is as easy to receive as not sending enough money to the Hombu. He has every right to be on that list, in my opinion."

    _________________________________________________

    Mr Bell,

    I appreciate your point here but the problem lies in the fact that the Hakko ryu Hombu Dojo no longer recognizes him an instructor. If we list him, do we not imply that he is authorized by the Hakko ryu to teach? The San Dai Kichu is a teaching license, is it not?

    What do others of you think?

    BJ

  10. #85
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    Originally posted by Mike B. Johnson

    Danzan ryu - Sig Kufferath / Tony Janovich / Bob Hudson
    I'm sorry if my earlier post wasn't clear.

    Okazaki shihan awarded kaiden no sho to a large group of students in 1948. That group included Sig Kufferath, and quite a few others like Wally Jay, Carl Beaver, and many more. George Arrington has identified many of them on this page at his Danzan.com website. You can see a group photo here .

    In 1993, Sig Kufferath issued 24 kaiden no sho, many of whom are likewise listed on his site. Here's a photo of that group of recipients.

    In February 2003 another group received their diplomas in a class conducted by Tony Janovich and Bob Hudson.
    Here's a photo of this most recent group. Many of their names can likewise be found on George's site.

    I apologize for not listing all the names before, but there are too many.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

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    Originally posted by Mike B. Johnson


    Mr Bell,

    I appreciate your point here but the problem lies in the fact that the Hakko ryu Hombu Dojo no longer recognizes him an instructor. If we list him, do we not imply that he is authorized by the Hakko ryu to teach? The San Dai Kichu is a teaching license, is it not?

    What do others of you think?

    BJ
    I understand your point. I think my largest problem is calling to the surface the "disciplinary action". Is he still able to teach Hakko ryu to the fullest? According to his menkyo, he is (by ability alone). He must have been something special to receive the license to begin with. Without knowing the terms behind the disciplinary action, I just think it's unfair to hand judgement into leaving him off of the list...as he was awarded the license.
    Systema

  12. #87
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Posted by Jay Bell:

    _____________________________

    "Without knowing the terms behind the disciplinary action, I just think it's unfair to hand judgement into leaving him off of the list...as he was awarded the license."

    _____________________________

    Yeah, this is sort of a sticky deal. I'd de interested in the opinions of other members here as I see both sides of this delimma. I guess I'm kind of a stickler on this however. The Hombu calls the shots. They have the authority to issue and revoke licenses. The question I posed was not really based on talent but instead on teaching authority recognized officially by the ryu or headmaster.

    I've met Julio Toribio many times and have found him to be a really nice guy, however he obviously did something that has resulted in his losing the authority to represent the Hakko ryu. If the Hakko ryu hombu dojo and soke say he does not have a license to teach Hakko ryu, then I think we must go with that position whether we agree with it or not.

    I appreciate your opinion on this Jay.

    BJ

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    Default Toribio Sensei

    I am not claiming to know what really happened between Toribio Sensei and the Hakko-Ryu organization; however, I spent some time training at his Monterey Dojo. From what I heard, again, please take with a huge grain of salt, was that he did not feel that the exorbitant fees for the advanced techniques was right. With this, he left the organization and founded his own group, Seibukan Jujutsu.

    I am sure his departure from the organization, coupled with his disagreement about money, could be cause enough for the Hombu to disavow him.

    Now, regardless of his sanding with the Hombu, he had the skills to earn the rank… and did earn the rank, so I feel we should recognize him for that and perhaps note that he is not longer with the Hakko-ryu.
    Just a thought,

    Justin
    Justin Campbell

  14. #89
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    Hello,

    I have to side with Mike Johnson here.

    Even if he earned the rank, officially leaving the ryuha or receiving hamon makes any previously given ranks invalid when we discuss a koryu bujutsu school as the school no longer sanctions what he does. If you venture off on your own then you have to be willing to stand on your own. That is how it has always been with the older traditions.

    Here is Karl Friday's explanation in a message titled "The Whole Legitimacy Thing" on the iaido list:

    "This issue of possession, which is fundamentally different from what holds in modern budô organizations (like Aikidô or Kendô) or in most types of instruction in the West, renders irrelevant any debates about the talents or the backgrounds of individuals, beyond the matter of whether or not they have *current* authorization from the *current* headmaster of the ryûha in question (the sôke or his delegated representative) to teach and invoke the name of the ryûha under the circumstances in question. It makes no difference how skillful the individual doing the teaching is; even the most qualified teachers are beyond the pale unless they are teaching through a specifically authorized arrangement. And even those certified or licensed to teach the school's arts are only doing so legitimately when the manner and circumstances under which they're teaching is sanctioned by the current ryûha headmaster. Even permission to teach granted by a past headmaster or even by the current headmaster in the past doesn't necessarily legitimize current instruction; the right to teach the ryûha AS THE ryûha is only as good as the current headmaster agrees that it is (kind of the way that having once had a driver's license doesn't necessarily make you an authorized driver, unless it's kept properly renewed)." From: http://koryu.com/library/kfriday1.html

    It was a great message that Karl Friday posted and I would recommend that people read it in it's entirety.

    The soke of Hakko-ryu makes the decisions regarding rank in his school and it is his decision alone.

    Sincerely,

    Ron Beaubien

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    Originally posted by Ron Beaubien
    Hello,

    ...Even if he earned the rank, officially leaving the ryuha or receiving hamon makes any previously given ranks invalid when we discuss a koryu bujutsu school as the school no longer sanctions what he does. If you venture off on your own then you have to be willing to stand on your own. That is how it has always been with the older traditions.....
    Picking nits here, when did Hakko Ryu become a Koryu? It was founded WELL after the beginning of the Meiji Period. If this is a Koryu being founded in 1941, then Aikido should have the same distinction of being a Koryu.

    Just based on what is in this thread, I agree that Sensei Toribio should be at the very least noted as earning the Menkyo Kaiden but is no longer an Official instructor.

    'Nuff Said
    "Qasim" Uriah Gardner

    "I'd like to think there are always... possibilities."

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