Further controversy, doubts, and the current situation (mostly in italy)

[Neviskio]

Hi, I'm a new poster from italy, I just recently started practicing daito-ryu aikijujutsu and as you can imagine since I'm posting here, I'm a strongly curious person and I kinda love doing things "the right way"(more on this later).

I followed and read back most of the posts here around, lurked around in both english speaking sites/italian ones, to find out how the situation has unfolded in the last 5-8 years and I've seen much controversy, rage, embarassing situations and generally a troubling schism in the DRAJJ teaching and I'm now wodering a lot of things and trying to understand and "enter" in this harsh situation.

I'll be posting a super-quick background before going into fulltopic so you understand why of this post:

I live in italy in a small-ish city, so I don't have access to most of the "real" world, especially when speaking about martial arts, I considered many times moving in bigger places and even considered going to japan(not related to martial arts but in the future it might be) but never managed to do so, in the end I decided to try DRAJJ and found it fascinating enough to start wondering WHAT I'm doing, WHERE I'm doing it, and with WHOM I'm doing it.

I started documenting myself, reading, checking videos, any reliable source and I found nice and not-so-nice things and I'm now wondering what is the real current situation, let me explain:

1)I read about the discendancy issue of DRAJJ and found out the evidence of the menkyo kaiden of Kondo Katsuyuki Sensei, I also learned all the history about the accidents and splits that happened
2)I then manage to check the history in italy and noticed a sad theatre of "I'm the best" "no I'm the real one" "no I'm the good guy here the others are a scam" and what not, to the point I grow myself an opinion about this
3)I read about Certa Sensei, and about Sano Sensei shiseikan and how the abashiri group is strong in Italy and how Kondo sensei is considered to be a "good politician" and by how some said "a scammer that didn't train enough"

Now considered this I'm puzzled: what a newcomer should think about this?

For me my issue is this: I'm not sure this will be my Way of life, since I just started, but I don't want to start with the wrong foot, so I'm worried it all might end in being just "time wasted".I don't consider my dojo a bad one, totally the other way around, I really like the atmosphere, I really like the place and I like what they teach and how, I have some good friends there(that probably will read this message and will be horribly offended, I apologize but I MUST understand or I will never be at peace when training)and I surely plan to keep on training....on the other hand though...

I'm worried because I keep hearing stories, and facts, and proofs, and then someone changed his mind, so I want to understand what is the real situation from people NOT involved in this situation:

I read Mr. Merello letters and apologizes and seen the video proofs so I'm convinced Kondo Sensei is the only mainline and I believe that his teaching is the right one.I personally didn't try it but plan on doing it in the future when I will be ready if he will be then like to accept a foreigner student, on the other hand I see all my Senseis studying under abashiri shiseinkan direction and I appreciate their methods I have faith they are doing everything 100% right but I wonder, in the end is that going to be THE right training? Some of them believe kondo is not the true mainline so I'm worried there is plenty of difference and I will not be able to learn the "right" way of DRAJJ, and that makes me feel uneasy.

I tried contacting directly people involved in the matter to try and mediate/understand why there is this strong split but both parties have been barely speaking up(you know I'm a newcomer so no one really opens up) so I now ask to the community of e-budo some help understanding this whole matter.

to summarize my concerns I'd say

1)What is the current situation of the japanese abshiri branch? Are they active? Are they recognizeing Kondo Sensei Menkyo kaiden? Are they affiliated or still divided?Who is the headmaster? And is that recognized by anyone or what?

2)Is it going to be valuable time? I don't plan on stopping untill I can try other options to decide by myself, but still I'm worried, anyone an say anything on this matter?

3)should i try keep having an open discussion with my senseis to try and understand eachothers? I kinda have that feeling that in the end we might get isolated not being under the mainline...you know I might just be paranoid

4)should i just try taking the chance of going and seeing by myself the difference between the teachings?

I apologize if anyone feels offende by my post, at first I thought I'd try to just keep this matter to myself but the more time passes the more doubts and questions are born into my mind and I couldn't just hold anymore...

Thanks in advance!

edit: just had an afterthought...if you wonder why I'm bringing this out in the public on e-budo and not just go talk here at the dojo is for 2 reasons, first to get an outsider impression since I noticed in italy most of the dojos don't recognize Kondo sensei, and the ones that do are outside my range, also I noticed it's kind of an europe-issue(well issue for me, not for them!), secondly because I don't want to be "that guy that is new here that is already causing troubles" because I feel it would be disrespectful to just go and create problems to the senseis.So I thought Id first ask and complete my understanding and then directly bring the issue face-to-face to learn more from their perspective.

[Jose Garrido]

4)should i just try taking the chance of going and seeing by myself the difference between the teachings?

YES

[Kendoguy9]

Hi Uliano,

You will find very polarized views here on E-budo. You have people like Jose' and me, both active under Kondo sensei and you will have people active under Mr. Certa. You might want to ask someone like our mod. Mr. Scott. He does not study Daito-ryu in either group so he might have a more honest opinion.

The evidence against Kondo sensei's menkyo kaiden is very thin and rather poor. Besides the document itself there is video from when Takeda sensei was alive where they recognize Kondo sensei's rank in front of Takeda sensei and members of the Daitokai. I'm sure you've seen it. So to me it becomes a matter of character. Do you want to train with someone who has told such lies in the past to so many people? No thank you. I might not be the most friendly guy around but I'm not going to lie like that. As for his hours in, I don't think that is an issue either. His training history is well documented. His experience in Daito-ryu is both broad and deep.

Is it the right way to do things? That is more subjective. There are many branches of Daito-ryu besides those that come from Takeda Tokimune sensei and they all have their flavor when doing things. Some groups I feel are weak, some are strong and some I can't say because I've never trained with them. What I use to judge a group (which might not apply to you since you are new) is if someone who has the same rank or same amount of time in as me can move me as well as my peers can. I've trained with some guys that can and I think to myself, "these guys are okay in my book." There are other guys that can't really move me very well at all and they disappoint me. I've been to seminars with teachers who couldn't throw me and I just walked past them instead of falling because what they offered wasn't real or at least not real enough for me. Could they punch me in the mouth? Sure, so can any street thug. I want to see if they can move me with their Daito-ryu. Some can and some can't.

As for your questions:
1. I'm not sure about Abashiri. Last I heard Mr. Kato was in very poor health. Mr. Arisawa passed away. Mr. Sano resigned years ago and apologized to Kondo sensei. There really isn't a headmaster to the art and never really was besides Takeda Sokaku sensei. His son Tokimune sensei tried to claim that title but it never really worked out because all of the other groups like Kodokai, Sagawa dojo, Yamamoto-den, Takumakai, etc. basically still did their own thing. Once you get your own freedom it is very hard to go back under someone's thumb. When that someone, in this case, was decades your junior in age (all skill level left out of it) it makes it even harder.

2. Valuable how? What do you want out of it? Do you want to train with a line that is lead by a menkyo kaiden? or one that is not? If that matters to you then you need to make up your mind. If that doesn't then that's okay, too. If you think about it the Kodokai is about the only group left that still has someone who knew Takeda Sokaku sensei personally. I think Inoue sensei met him as a young child. Maybe that is important to you? I don't know. I've met people from backyard karate clubs that can fight better than any menkyo kaiden ranked people or me or anyone I know. If just kicking butt is most important maybe that is what you need to consider?

3. I think you already know their position so I wouldn't imagine bringing the topic up will help you much. Just like many of the posts here between Mr. Certa's students and me, facts don't seem to really matter.

4. I'll 2nd Jose' and say go to Japan and meet some people. Train with Kondo sensei (I'm sure an Italian student can help you meet him) and find out for yourself. Maybe even go to Abashiri and see how that goes. I'm sure your teachers can arrange for it. I think anyone studying a Japanese budo should go to Japan a few times in their life anyway.

Good luck!

[Raff]

Alessandro,

I do not see your point here, and I do not really understand who you exactly are because you are mixing both names and places. It seems that you do not have a clear picture of the situation.

I live in italy in a small-ish city

Where exactly? This would no doubt give me an immediate answer about who you are. Anyway, I have the feeling that you are a member of the Shiseikan.

3)I read about Certa Sensei, and about Sano Sensei shiseikan and how the abashiri group is strong in Italy and how Kondo sensei is considered to be a "good politician" and by how some said "a scammer that didn't train enough"

This is not accurate, there are many Daitô-Ryû organizations in Italy. Daitokai, Shiseikan, Hakuhokai, Seifukai, and a couple of Dôjô following instructions from Mr Kondo one in Milano and another one in Reggio Emilia or Modena, not so sure. That make 5 different organizations.

For me my issue is this: I'm not sure this will be my Way of life, since I just started

Then may be you should first find an answer for yourself before coming to this board.

I read Mr. Merello letters and apologizes and seen the video proofs so I'm convinced Kondo Sensei is the only mainline and I believe that his teaching is the right one

Since you "know", why ask? Go for it.

3)should i try keep having an open discussion with my senseis to try and understand eachothers? I kinda have that feeling that in the end we might get isolated not being under the mainline...you know I might just be paranoid

Since you are mentioning several Senseis, I assume that you are from L'Aquila. You should have talked to them before posting here, they are very openminded and everybody is free to make his/her own choice.

edit: just had an afterthought...if you wonder why I'm bringing this out in the public on e-budo and not just go talk here at the dojo is for 2 reasons, first to get an outsider impression since I noticed in italy most of the dojos don't recognize Kondo sensei, and the ones that do are outside my range, also I noticed it's kind of an europe-issue(well issue for me, not for them!), secondly because I don't want to be "that guy that is new here that is already causing troubles" because I feel it would be disrespectful to just go and create problems to the senseis.So I thought Id first ask and complete my understanding and then directly bring the issue face-to-face to learn more from their perspective.

Once again, you are missing the point. First of all, Mr Kondo is recognized by every Dôjô in Italy as a very valuable teacher of Daitô-Ryû but not as THE teacher. I do not know if you see the difference here. It is obvious that Mr Kondo, a former student of Tokimune Takeda has a very valuable experience and that he is very skilled. Some have choosen to train with different organizations, as long as everybody is satisfied, I don not see any problem here.

You are not really causing troubles eventhough you should have talked to your fellow Daitô-Ryû practionners first. You must understand that the fights of the past are now over and that we do not really care about the succession controversy. There are so many details that you are unaware of. If you are a new student, then you have never met personnaly some individuals involved and you do not really know what happened inside the Daitokai. Basically, the controversy was brought on purpose by two fellow countrymen of yours. Both of them have stopped Daitô-Ryû and are not involved anymore with us, which is actually, the best move they could do. Talk to your senseis, they will tell you exactly the same thing. Quite frankly, they do not care about the controversy, they only want to train and improve their skills. It looks like you did not participate to the September seminar in San Benedetto, I suggest that you participate next time, most of your "technical questions" will find an answer.

I might not be the most friendly guy around but I'm not going to lie like that.

That's right, you are not the most friendly guy around to say the least
You did also write a couple of inacurate statements:

Chris Covington wrote:


Quote:
Most of the members from this organization have left to train under Kondo sensei

Which is, as we both know, totally wrong + a couple of other things.

But who cares? as you said:

I've met people from backyard karate clubs that can fight better than any menkyo kaiden ranked people or me or anyone I know. If just kicking butt is most important maybe that is what you need to consider?

May be, we all should do?

Good training and Alessandro talk to your senseis.

[Nathan Scott]

Hello all,

I don't see any problem with someone posting a well intended post such as this. It is a valid question. However, there are two issues to consider. One involves the technical issues of levels of initiation, license/rights to teach the art (succession of teachings). The technical issues have been covered extensively on this and other forums, and I don't think there is any doubt at this point as to the conclusions. IMO, there is no longer an "if, could be" situation about these issues. There is enough source evidence and testimonies from those involved that, IMO, there is no longer any room for doubt.

As far as who is better skilled, since such an evaluation is subjective, I believe it is inappropriate to comment on it publicly. Nothing good ever comes from it, and feelings inevitably get hurt. There are extensive videos and books now that demonstrate the level of skill and understanding of the people being discussed here. I urge readers to review them and form your own opinion. Anyone interested in my opinion is welcome to PM me. I'm happy to express my opinion privately if anyone is curious (just give me a little time to write back).

When it comes down to it though, the best solution is to meet those involved directly and see what you think of their skill level, understanding of the art, and character. Also, be realistic about what you are looking to get out of the training. Is it more important to train under someone you get along with? If you're goal is to become skilled at the art, or to enjoy training with others? There are many reasons for training, and they are all valid. You need to understand what you are looking for and prioritize them. In other words, the likelihood of finding one teacher/dojo that is perfect in all regards is not very realistic.

Personally, FWIW, over the years I've developed certain criteria that I'm looking for in an art and/or teacher. I am primarily interested in mastering the arts I study, and becoming physically skilled at them. Everything else is secondary. That means teachers who have full, legitimate initiation in their art, and the ability / willingness to pass them on (not necessarily super-skilled themselves, as long as they can pass the teachings on correctly). I am against large organizations, and try to establish as direct of a teacher-student relationship as high up as possible in order to create the best opportunity for learning. I'm not interested in training in arts that are not willing to award levels of authority in their art (densho), because those that are not willing to give up any level of control (even though it was given to them) are also not willing to teach everything to those who are not family. I've chosen to specialize in classical Japanese arts, and train in ones that are very complimentary, so that I can develop one operating system and set of tactics/strategy. That way I can be assured of reacting clearly and efficiently (you do as you train) when needed. Lastly, I test myself through real-world conflicts (not competitions, sports, or sparring) that present themselves through my chosen profession. So far, the above learning strategy has been serving me VERY well, as evidenced by my successes on the street.

I agree with the overview Mr. Covington posted above, and also encourage others to look at the facts, meet the people, and form their own opinions based on what they are looking for personally.

Regards,

[MichaelZ]

To all,

Mr. Scott does seem to know quite a bit about classical Japanese arts, and Mr. Covington may know a lot about Mr. Kondo’s organization. However, their statements about these issues are nothing more than their own opinions.

As far as Mr. Kondo is concerned, no one disputes that Takeda Tokimune Soke awarded him a Godan in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu—the highest dan ranking. Kato Shigemitsu sensei also was awarded a Godan by the Soke. That means both demonstrated that they were highly knowledgeable and very skilled practitioners. It also means both have legitimate lineage within the art. (While modern rankings may have some questionable aspects, I doubt anyone could reasonably say that the Soke did not demand the highest levels from these men when their ranks were earned.)

I understand that Kato sensei, who is older, no longer regularly teaches. Antonino Certa sensei, a Shihan and Yondan (again, out of a five dan system), continues to teach the syllabus as taught in Abashiri. Although Messrs. Scott and Covington apparently have never trained with Certa sensei, I have. He is a great teacher and a great person. He is deeply passionate about teaching the art, and what it means to be a martial artist, as it was taught to him.

Although a highly ranked student of other arts, Mr. Scott does not appear to be yudansha in Daito Ryu Aikibudo. While Mr. Covington is a nidan (a very high honor from Mr. Kondo), he is not a Shihan. While there is nothing wrong with either one expressing their opinions, to place those opinions in context, neither one has first hand knowledge of the reasons or the circumstances behind the succession dispute from 20 years ago (nor do I). Since I have been a member, no one in Certa sensei’s organization has mentioned Mr. Kondo’s menkyo kaiden or the dispute (if any lingers) concerning it.

Mr. Kondo’s group and Certa sensei’s organization are not affiliated. However, Certa sensei and my teacher have expressed to me that Mr. Kondo is highly skilled. As far as any reconciliation among the groups is concerned, who knows what the future holds?

By the way Mr. Scott, I understand that your Aikido teacher, Obata Toshishiro sensei, was an uchi-deshi of Gozo Shioda sensei—you may be interested to know that there is a photo of Certa sensei as his uke in Shioda sensei’s book.

Best regards,

Michael Zartman