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Thread: Interview: Saito Morihiro (hanmi, hiotemi, exotic pins, & weapons)

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    Default Interview: Saito Morihiro (hanmi, hiotemi, exotic pins, & weapons)

    As some may know, Stanley Pranin, over at Aikido Journal is doing an enormous data dump. Hitherto unseen films of Daito-ryu and early aikido practitioners, such as Tomiki, Shirata, and Hirai are now online. I strongly urge any and everyone to buy a subscription (quite cheap) for the members-only content and also to support Stan's invaluable work.

    He's also been uploading pdf's of his old magazine. I recently read an interview with Saito Morihito, and he said the following:
    After the war when he resumed practicing at Iwama, his aikido had changed dramatically, although it had been influenced by Daito-ryu. I think the most distinctive differences between aikido and Daito-ryu are as follows:
    Aikido can be taught from hanmi, but Daito-ryu cannot because hanmi is not considered to be the basis of Daito-ryu. In Daito-ryu kokyuho is not clearly taught. Although Daito-ryu has many tewaza (hand techniques) in it, many of the body movements are in opposition to the opponent's movments. Daito-ryu does not include the theory of the unity of the sword, jo and taijutsu.. . . In addition, there were a number of techniques in Daito-ryu which were not particularly effective against an opponent who had been even slightly trained in martial arts. So although there may have been a large number of techniques, many of them were not particularly effective.
    I posted this here, because I think that, as opposed to Aikiweb (which is down anyway), there are more readers who are actually actively engaged in orthodox Daito-ryu practice, in one or the other faction. I have no idea, either, if Saito ever saw Daito-ryu, which faction he might have seen, or if this is merely him passing on what Ueshiba himself said.Now, a caveat: it would be silly to waste time about being insulted here, or coming back with the flaws in aikido. That's not my point in posting. Rather, I'm curious about:
    1. The question of hanmi - I've been told that the Kodokai does not use hanmi as their baseline stance and that Horikawa stated it is because Daito-ryu has it's roots in gagaku (archaic dance). Is this even true of the Kodokai? Much less other Daito-ryu groups? I'm curious, because I do not particularly like hanmi because it twists the hip too far behind - as opposed to hitoemi where the twist is not so radical.
    2. I'm aware that DR practitioners would assert that aikidoka's kokyuho is lacking a clear differentiation of aikisage and aikiage. It's unclear what Saito meant here - perhaps an Iwama old-timer has an idea?
    3. The unity of weaponry - hmmm. Depends on the faction, doesn't it?
    4. I am curious about what DR practitioners think of the more "archane" elaborate waza - what IS their purpose?

    In hopes of a professional discussion.

    Best
    Ellis Amdur

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    Ellis can you define your hanmi and hitoemi stances a bit further please, to me hitoemi is absolutely side on, with the hips in line with the attack... for instance the right hip facing the opponent and the left hip directly behind the right on the line to the opponent. Hanmi on the other hand is usually defined as somewhere between hitoemi and the hips on a 90 degree angle to the opponent... ie both equidistant from him. I'm having a hard time picturing the hips turning further than hitoemi unless we are aiming our butts at the opponent.

    Kim.

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    Kim - Actually, I've thought of it in "reverse." To me, hanmi has the front heel and back heel lined up. An "L" stance. The way I've understood Hitoemi is that there is a fist's width between the line of the two heels. "| _"

    So it is not as radical a twist of the body. If I am mistaken in terminology - I stand corrected (with my heels one fist's width apart).

    Ellis

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    No mistake should be assumed Ellis, definitions aren't "written in the stars" which is why we should always ask. My usage of the terms is indeed the reverse of yours but our jodo instructors talk about "hanmi" (hitoemi) and "ya ya hanmi" which causes some folks in another line to giggle as they talk about "hitoemi" and "hanmi".

    The Aikido L-stance and often T-stance can be fetishized like any stance. The correct stance is always going to be the one that works (for us), and we're going to twitch our hips into that one as soon as contact with the opponent is made, regardless of how we're standing just before that. Watching my teacher's teacher carefully many years ago I noticed that he started in the nice aiki stance, but finished his throws with a good square kendo stance as he cut across the line of movement of his opponent and threw them body-lengths away from himself. His hips were alive, his back foot was not the "boat-anchor" I see on so many beginners who are fascinated with the idea that a stance is somehow all-important.

    I like the Gorin no Sho take on stances. "THERE ARE NO STANCES... here are the five stances of my school".

    Kim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur View Post
    As some may know, Stanley Pranin, over at Aikido Journal is doing an enormous data dump. Hitherto unseen films of Daito-ryu and early aikido practitioners, such as Tomiki, Shirata, and Hirai are now online. I strongly urge any and everyone to buy a subscription (quite cheap) for the members-only content and also to support Stan's invaluable work.

    He's also been uploading pdf's of his old magazine. I recently read an interview with Saito Morihito, and he said the following:


    I posted this here, because I think that, as opposed to Aikiweb (which is down anyway), there are more readers who are actually actively engaged in orthodox Daito-ryu practice, in one or the other faction. I have no idea, either, if Saito ever saw Daito-ryu, which faction he might have seen, or if this is merely him passing on what Ueshiba himself said.Now, a caveat: it would be silly to waste time about being insulted here, or coming back with the flaws in aikido. That's not my point in posting. Rather, I'm curious about:
    1. The question of hanmi - I've been told that the Kodokai does not use hanmi as their baseline stance and that Horikawa stated it is because Daito-ryu has it's roots in gagaku (archaic dance). Is this even true of the Kodokai? Much less other Daito-ryu groups? I'm curious, because I do not particularly like hanmi because it twists the hip too far behind - as opposed to hitoemi where the twist is not so radical.
    2. I'm aware that DR practitioners would assert that aikidoka's kokyuho is lacking a clear differentiation of aikisage and aikiage. It's unclear what Saito meant here - perhaps an Iwama old-timer has an idea?
    3. The unity of weaponry - hmmm. Depends on the faction, doesn't it?
    4. I am curious about what DR practitioners think of the more "archane" elaborate waza - what IS their purpose?

    In hopes of a professional discussion.

    Best
    Ellis Amdur
    Hello and happy new year to everybody.


    1. In Daitô-Ryû, people tend to use the ShinzenTai stance, no Kamae is used even though I do not think that assuming one is forbiden, but as far as I know no Hanmi in Daitô-Ryû.

    2. Kokyuho is what is called in DR Aikiage and Aikinage, there are both sitting and standing positions and the exercices seem to be quite similar. I once trained with Quentin Ball Sensei of the Hakohukai and they pratice a very deep and fascinating sound exercice from a sitting position called Kokyuho if memory serves. This is a very relaxing exercice, you basically expell deep and powerful sounds from your "belly" like a long roar (AAAAHHHHHHHHH). I know that I'm not very clear in my explanation, if someone from the Gloucester Dôjô can help me, that would be highly appreciated.

    3. It is said that DR derives from the sword and that practising DR and Kenjutsu is more than recommended. It seems like the Tai no Henko and the Sankaku Tobi also derive from Kenjutsu. Yes, it might depend on the faction and I guess this is also the same in Aikido. In any case learning some Kenjutsu can not damage your skills and might even improve them.

    4. Not really sure about the meaning of archane, my dictionnary shows something very funny without any possible relationship with the subject. Do you mean more "complicated" techniques? I think that in DR every technique, from the most basic one to the most extravagant one, must be understood and then unpacked. The philosophy is to be in a technical position to use a given technique against different kind of attacks. For instance, applying Ippon Dori against a straight punch or a grab attempt instead of a Shomen Uchi strike. Jûjutsu, once the basics are mastered, allows a great freedom of mind and technical applications. After all, we are all human beings not robots.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    Raff - Thanks for your reply. Everything you've written is very clear.

    By "archane," I meant the more unusual, elaborate techniques - what I sometimes call "human origami." There will be a number of steps, and uke, sooner - often later - ends up tied around themselves. In others, two or three people are tangled around each other.

    Best
    Ellis Amdur

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    Ellis,

    I guess you are talking about the Tasudori techniques included in the Gokajo set of techniques. Those techniques are indeed very wird and, I believe, something specific to Sokaku. I do not think that someone else, set aside Sagawa Sensei, was ever able to perform these techniques against non cooperatives Ukes. Of course, I might be wrong. In Transparent power, Sagawa Sensei states that Sokaku used to show some "flashy", impressive but still effective techniques to get people interested in studying the art.

    As for tying one's Uke, it seems to be a speciality of the Takumakai.

    Here is a short video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuYnTdqOkZA

    I really like those techniques, no handcuffs are needed!!!! I wonder what Nathan think about them. When Sokaku taught at the Asahi news Dôjô, the students were actually ensuring security of the Company against possible attacks from the outside. Once arrested, people must be handed over to the Police, I guess those techniques were designed for that matter: to control without injuries and, of course preventing them from escaping. Do not know if they were ever used though. Do you think this is a plausible explanation?
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    Raff - Re the idea of restraint techniques specifically taught/created for the security service. That's a good idea.

    The only problem I have - technically - is that uke will not get into a lot of those positions without a relaxed, non-resisting style of response. What I mean is that once uke grabs and is "jammed," he is passive throughout the rest of the techniques - which are quite long.

    Honestly, (and I've written about this in HIPS), I sometimes have wondered if Takeda simply created (and was "recorded" - imitated, by assiduous students) these techniques while playing around, in a sense. That's why I use the term, "human origami." As in, "let's see what will happen if I fold this here, and twist this here."

    Perhaps some may recall a method of wrapping a prisoner's legs around a pole - Note #26B - the Grapevine - in Fairbairn and Sykes. That works (we've experimented with it) - but the person will only get in that position if forced at weapon-point.

    Best
    Ellis Amdur

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur View Post
    Raff - Re the idea of restraint techniques specifically taught/created for the security service. That's a good idea.

    The only problem I have - technically - is that uke will not get into a lot of those positions without a relaxed, non-resisting style of response. What I mean is that once uke grabs and is "jammed," he is passive throughout the rest of the techniques - which are quite long.

    Honestly, (and I've written about this in HIPS), I sometimes have wondered if Takeda simply created (and was "recorded" - imitated, by assiduous students) these techniques while playing around, in a sense. That's why I use the term, "human origami." As in, "let's see what will happen if I fold this here, and twist this here."

    Perhaps some may recall a method of wrapping a prisoner's legs around a pole - Note #26B - the Grapevine - in Fairbairn and Sykes. That works (we've experimented with it) - but the person will only get in that position if forced at weapon-point.

    Best
    Ellis Amdur
    In terms of a study of how things turn and twist, I think it's not too bad. Other than that, it's a great show, and Takeda would have known about that kind of thing from his days with the acrobatic troupe, or so it seems to me...

    I don't know about the rest, except to say that the importance of the sword in Aikido is probably just as controversial as it is in Daito-ryu.

    Best,

    CHris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur View Post
    Raff - Re the idea of restraint techniques specifically taught/created for the security service. That's a good idea.

    The only problem I have - technically - is that uke will not get into a lot of those positions without a relaxed, non-resisting style of response. What I mean is that once uke grabs and is "jammed," he is passive throughout the rest of the techniques - which are quite long.

    Honestly, (and I've written about this in HIPS), I sometimes have wondered if Takeda simply created (and was "recorded" - imitated, by assiduous students) these techniques while playing around, in a sense. That's why I use the term, "human origami." As in, "let's see what will happen if I fold this here, and twist this here."

    Perhaps some may recall a method of wrapping a prisoner's legs around a pole - Note #26B - the Grapevine - in Fairbairn and Sykes. That works (we've experimented with it) - but the person will only get in that position if forced at weapon-point.

    Best
    Ellis Amdur
    Ellis,

    You are right, the techniques last far too long and would be extremely hard to apply on someone unwilling to get caught. May be those techniques can be used or were supposed to be used in teamwork (in a SWAT-like fashion), with 2, 3 or even more people involved? That would make more sense. On duty and whatever the situation, we are never less than 2 officers when it comes to restrain somebody. Anyway, this must be funny to practice (at least for Tori).

    I agree with your theory about Sokaku being "creative" and somehow having fun with people while teaching. He probably did this more than often in his career. It is obvious that Tasudori techniques are more imitations of Sokaku's skills than techniques which can be mastered through assiduous training.

    My 2 cents
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raff View Post
    As for tying one's Uke, it seems to be a speciality of the Takumakai.

    Here is a short video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuYnTdqOkZA
    Is this clip on Stan Pranin's DVD of the 50th anniversary embu and my DVD player keeps skipping past it?

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    I figure all of the fancy katas that you see any of the top Daito ryu guys doing at public embus were meant, at least in part, to be impressive public displays. Takeda grew up in a time when warriors had stipends, but in his adulthood he had to explore different avenues to make a living. We know he spent a lot of time on the road demonstrating his art and teaching large seminars, at a time when the role of martial study was in flux.

    I don't know enough about Takeda to gauge his level of self-interest in disseminating Daito ryu. Perhaps it was just marketing / branding. Perhaps he was trying to make a statement to future generations about what they had turned their back on in the rush to westernize and join the modern world. But I think its pretty clear that he wanted to attract attention to what he was doing, to make a big splash.

    From what I have experienced, application of aiki often doesn't look like much from the outside. So perhaps the elaborate kata were specifically contrived to give people something to look at. The inner teachings of the kata are only accessible to students who train diligently under the supervision of a good teacher, and they are subtle things. But my theory is that with Daito ryu, Takeda wanted to make them seem more complex and dramatic on the outside than they were on the inside.

    As far as the weapons link goes, I had always figured the relationship with weapons was exactly the same in Daito ryu as it is in Aikido: that the art is built upon the principals of engagement with weapons as opposed to a pugilisitc context. And Kondo Sensei demonstrates some of the Ikkajo techniques with swords. So I find that statement curious.

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    I have a few thoughts regarding the reason for the elaborate kata within Daito Ryu, but bear in mind that my experience in Daito Ryu is practically nill and my experience with koryu in general is not much higher.

    First, I suspect that most of the koryu that have a kata-rich curriculum (besides Daito Ryu, I seem to recall that Takenouchi Ryu has a few hundred kata) probably have a relatively small number of really necessary kata. I find it very likely that Daito Ryu has a core grouping of kata that encapsulate everything that a practitioner really needs to know and that all other kata are simply elaborations on these core themes. Some of these elaborations are probably more important than others; the question is why they have so many.

    I recall a post that Ellis made in the thread on his HIPS book in which he commented that he found the jujutsu-style kata of his own school boring and went so far as to say

    Speaking personally, the only reason I can stand continuing to do jujutsu kata is we added a pressure/testing, randori/break the kata component.
    One theory that this suggests is that the incredible diversity of kata in Daito Ryu (and perhaps other, similar schools) exist to combat the boredom that trainees would inevitably experience if all they did was kata. Of course there is the option of practicing randori/sumo/shiai, but too much randori combined with too little kata training is a recipe for students to build habits out of line with the principles of the school. By introducing a huge number of kata that are all still variations on the same theme, the school is able to constantly present a student with new material to keep him engaged while simultaneously keeping him concentrated on the core lessons of the school and its specific body mechanics.

    This reminds me a little of the way math is taught in western schools. Telling students the theory behind a mathematical operation isn't enough-- they need repetition to master the basic skills (which they will need later on to solve complex problems that involve more creativity and independent thought). But asking them to do the same problem over and over won't work-- each problem in the textbook varies things up a bit. Following this reasoning, some of the more "arcane" kata that we see demonstrated in Daito Ryu might be the equivalent of throwing a bunch of extra parenthesis and other distractions into a math problem that the students would otherwise know how to do. Some see the complex problem and panic for a moment, but as they study it they realize that, ignoring all the extraneous factors, this is exactly like the other problems that they have already mastered.

    Anyway, that is one theory for why a school like Daito Ryu might add so many variations on the kata and why some of them appear so strange to an outsider. As to why Daito Ryu actually does those things, well, that's a matter that would have to be discovered from the inside.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    Is this clip on Stan Pranin's DVD of the 50th anniversary embu and my DVD player keeps skipping past it?

    Yes, this is a part of the 50th anniversary from 1993. I have it on videotape. I bought it years ago, it is still running good.

    Just a short comment on effectivness. All Daitô-Ryû techniques/Kata and generally speaking all techniques are meant to be effective. It would make no sense to teach something ineffective, illogic or bound to be a failure by nature.

    During Kata Keiko, a correctly applied technique must work since they are meant to work, if it does not, it means that the principles or the application of the technique are not understood or mastered. This is why we relentlessly practice Kata: to master a the technique and the principles within it. There is a saying on that subject:"one thousand times to master it, ten thousand times to polish it".

    but when it comes to applied techniques (oyo-waza), I often adapt my pins to be either hands free or one hand free on a regular basis. I can transition into them very quickly and efficiently, and I have found them not only useful, but critical for work.
    I definetely agree with Mr Scott. It is crucial for a police officer to keep at least one hand free while arresting or handcuffing someone. The free hand can be used to grab the gun, the baton or whatever weapon around the belt in case of emergency. In that regard, the pinning techniques of DR using the foot and the knee are very very reliable and even allow a cooler Zanshin.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    I usually am not willing to participate in forums, but perhaps as the senior representative of Okabayashi Sensei in the States I should be more willing. Moreover, I have a bit of 'giri' to Mr. Amdur, since he gave me great advice in 2009 through a second party. And since this is his question, I am inclined to answer.

    (Thank you, Mr. Amdur -- your advice in '09 made great sense.)

    I will try to answer Mr. Amdur's questions to the best of my ability, from our persecutive. I can only comment on what we do and I make no comparisons to other branches of DR.

    1. Daitô Ryû is a very linear school of jûjutsu. Hitoemi means to be in a body position where you are lined up parallel to the attacking line. The lead foot points forward and the knee, hips, and shoulders line up to where the foot is pointing. To line up properly, the back foot needs to open slightly toward the rear. It should be noted that this is a temporary position to avoid an attack, and is used to get into a position to apply a technique. Another point that makes this difficult is the alignment needs to be internal. Without the internal being aligned properly the external will not follow.

    2. In DR we try to hide our breath. Saito Sensei is right in that breathing is not clearly taught. It is one of those things that must be 'stolen' from your teacher, and or is slowly learned after gaining the trust of your teacher. This information is slowly leaked out. One possible reason for this is that if you can read someone's breathing you can take advantage of their timing. As an example, it is said that Sokaku would -- instead of matching his breath to an opponent's -- cause the opponent to match to his breath, and could therefore control the opponent much more easily.

    3. In Sôgô-bujutsu, whether they use a yari, bo, kotachi, jûjutsu or other, they use consistent principles of body movement. Even though they use a different weapon system or empty hand the movements are under the umbrella of one school. Every school moves a little differently. If they all moved the same, they'd just be the same school with a different name. I think a good example is Kuroda Sensei. Watch how he moves in jujutsu, jute, jo, sword… it's all the same. I submit that Daitô Ryû and Sokaku Den Ittô Ryû fall under this definition of sôgô-bujutsu. Can one be taught without the other? Yes. However, it is when you put the two together that it makes Aikibudo. Why Saito Sensei thought that Daito Ryu was without the theory of unity in sword is anyone's guess.

    4. Finally, as to the arcane waza, they are fun to do -- in the dojo -- aren't they? It is important as a DR practitioner not to get infatuated with this kind of technique, though. To do so leads to lack of practice of the basics, and without a solid foundation these kinds of body tie-up techinues will not work in the dojo, let alone on the street.

    Sincerely,
    Rod Uhler

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