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Thread: Interview: Saito Morihiro (hanmi, hiotemi, exotic pins, & weapons)

  1. #16
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    I figure all of the fancy katas that you see any of the top Daito ryu guys doing at public embus were meant, at least in part, to be impressive public displays. Takeda grew up in a time when warriors had stipends, but in his adulthood he had to explore different avenues to make a living. We know he spent a lot of time on the road demonstrating his art and teaching large seminars, at a time when the role of martial study was in flux.

    I don't know enough about Takeda to gauge his level of self-interest in disseminating Daito ryu. Perhaps it was just marketing / branding. Perhaps he was trying to make a statement to future generations about what they had turned their back on in the rush to westernize and join the modern world. But I think its pretty clear that he wanted to attract attention to what he was doing, to make a big splash.

    From what I have experienced, application of aiki often doesn't look like much from the outside. So perhaps the elaborate kata were specifically contrived to give people something to look at. The inner teachings of the kata are only accessible to students who train diligently under the supervision of a good teacher, and they are subtle things. But my theory is that with Daito ryu, Takeda wanted to make them seem more complex and dramatic on the outside than they were on the inside.

    As far as the weapons link goes, I had always figured the relationship with weapons was exactly the same in Daito ryu as it is in Aikido: that the art is built upon the principals of engagement with weapons as opposed to a pugilisitc context. And Kondo Sensei demonstrates some of the Ikkajo techniques with swords. So I find that statement curious.

  2. #17
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    I have a few thoughts regarding the reason for the elaborate kata within Daito Ryu, but bear in mind that my experience in Daito Ryu is practically nill and my experience with koryu in general is not much higher.

    First, I suspect that most of the koryu that have a kata-rich curriculum (besides Daito Ryu, I seem to recall that Takenouchi Ryu has a few hundred kata) probably have a relatively small number of really necessary kata. I find it very likely that Daito Ryu has a core grouping of kata that encapsulate everything that a practitioner really needs to know and that all other kata are simply elaborations on these core themes. Some of these elaborations are probably more important than others; the question is why they have so many.

    I recall a post that Ellis made in the thread on his HIPS book in which he commented that he found the jujutsu-style kata of his own school boring and went so far as to say

    Speaking personally, the only reason I can stand continuing to do jujutsu kata is we added a pressure/testing, randori/break the kata component.
    One theory that this suggests is that the incredible diversity of kata in Daito Ryu (and perhaps other, similar schools) exist to combat the boredom that trainees would inevitably experience if all they did was kata. Of course there is the option of practicing randori/sumo/shiai, but too much randori combined with too little kata training is a recipe for students to build habits out of line with the principles of the school. By introducing a huge number of kata that are all still variations on the same theme, the school is able to constantly present a student with new material to keep him engaged while simultaneously keeping him concentrated on the core lessons of the school and its specific body mechanics.

    This reminds me a little of the way math is taught in western schools. Telling students the theory behind a mathematical operation isn't enough-- they need repetition to master the basic skills (which they will need later on to solve complex problems that involve more creativity and independent thought). But asking them to do the same problem over and over won't work-- each problem in the textbook varies things up a bit. Following this reasoning, some of the more "arcane" kata that we see demonstrated in Daito Ryu might be the equivalent of throwing a bunch of extra parenthesis and other distractions into a math problem that the students would otherwise know how to do. Some see the complex problem and panic for a moment, but as they study it they realize that, ignoring all the extraneous factors, this is exactly like the other problems that they have already mastered.

    Anyway, that is one theory for why a school like Daito Ryu might add so many variations on the kata and why some of them appear so strange to an outsider. As to why Daito Ryu actually does those things, well, that's a matter that would have to be discovered from the inside.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    Is this clip on Stan Pranin's DVD of the 50th anniversary embu and my DVD player keeps skipping past it?

    Yes, this is a part of the 50th anniversary from 1993. I have it on videotape. I bought it years ago, it is still running good.

    Just a short comment on effectivness. All Daitô-Ryû techniques/Kata and generally speaking all techniques are meant to be effective. It would make no sense to teach something ineffective, illogic or bound to be a failure by nature.

    During Kata Keiko, a correctly applied technique must work since they are meant to work, if it does not, it means that the principles or the application of the technique are not understood or mastered. This is why we relentlessly practice Kata: to master a the technique and the principles within it. There is a saying on that subject:"one thousand times to master it, ten thousand times to polish it".

    but when it comes to applied techniques (oyo-waza), I often adapt my pins to be either hands free or one hand free on a regular basis. I can transition into them very quickly and efficiently, and I have found them not only useful, but critical for work.
    I definetely agree with Mr Scott. It is crucial for a police officer to keep at least one hand free while arresting or handcuffing someone. The free hand can be used to grab the gun, the baton or whatever weapon around the belt in case of emergency. In that regard, the pinning techniques of DR using the foot and the knee are very very reliable and even allow a cooler Zanshin.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    Nothing to add without thread drift into threads already written: but I for one would like to say that it is pretty cool to have multiple experienced officers here, all coming from different perspectives (at least in the details), and yet able to discuss and debate without the bluster and electronic tiger-ism prevalent in some other places.

    I know I have received some very positive PMs and engaged in some valuable private conversations regarding stuff here at E-Budo, no doubt you all have as well.

    Hats off, Happy New Year, and above all Be Safe in 2012!

    Gratuitous Smiley Added at the Request of a Little One:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Chris, good point about DR weapon work not producing skilled swordsmen, etc. That is true, unfortunately. It seems that Sokaku was more interested in teaching those who already knew weapons how to apply aiki, rather than with teaching them weapons fundamentals. That being said, for those that already know weapons, they should have no problem applying aiki with them once a proper understanding is obtained in DR.
    I think you hit it on the head with weapons, too. None of the lines learned (or at least retained) much weapons work from Sokaku sensei. I don't think it is fair to expect Daito-ryu to produce swordsmen if little or no sword work is present in the art. You are right though that you can apply aiki to weapons and I guess that was the point. It seems like in some ways aikido and Daito-ryu come at the problem from different directions. Daito-ryu teaches to add aiki to weapons, aikido teaches to add weapons to aiki. The problem is neither produce very good swordsmen. If you want mochi go to a mochi maker.
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Nothing to add without thread drift into threads already written: but I for one would like to say that it is pretty cool to have multiple experienced officers here, all coming from different perspectives (at least in the details), and yet able to discuss and debate without the bluster and electronic tiger-ism prevalent in some other places.

    I know I have received some very positive PMs and engaged in some valuable private conversations regarding stuff here at E-Budo, no doubt you all have as well.
    Hey Kit,

    I agree. Everyone here has some different and valuable experience going hands on and/or carrying weapons for their job. Very informed opinions. The chatter here is lower than other budo forums but the quality is much higher and it draws a better crowd if you ask me. To be honest I have printed out a number of PMs and emails that have resulted from conversations here and put them in my personal training manuals. I've been on various budo forums for a pretty long time and this is the only one that has generated that quality of conversation for me.

    Stay safe!
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raff View Post
    I definetely agree with Mr Scott. It is crucial for a police officer to keep at least one hand free while arresting or handcuffing someone. The free hand can be used to grab the gun, the baton or whatever weapon around the belt in case of emergency. In that regard, the pinning techniques of DR using the foot and the knee are very very reliable and even allow a cooler Zanshin.
    Sorry, I meant valuable not reliable, but of course the techniques are indeed also reliable.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:05.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  9. #24
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    A bit of a different perspective here: not all - indeed most - arrests are compliant or mostly so.

    Many non-compliant arrests become mostly so after a takedown is performed, that is, once they know you're serious.

    I imagine that this was pretty much true in days of yore in Japan as well.

    Apparent compliance does not mean you lazily walk in to restrain someone - in particular if you have to literally tie them up, which takes more time and greater attention, and closer proximity, to your suspect. You still should maintain some level of control over them while you are performing the restraint - in case he changes his mind - remaining vigilant against an ambush attack that brought you in close: a place where many officers are hurt and killed today, right when they go hands on.

    If these tactics are being taught to police, it is very likely that many pins are actually intended for compliant or relatively compliant - yet still high risk individuals. Just like today we treat them differently, approach them differently, and control them differently than you do a fully compliant, relatively low risk individual. By proning them out for starters.

    As well, the ability to control someone without using the hands would come in handy when you need both hands to tie someone.

    The fancier ties based on status are also no doubt for compliant suspects of status versus those that still presented an active threat.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post

    According to Hisa, Sokaku taught to use the legs and body to attack the opponent's joints, rather than the arms, which are the weakest of the four limbs. However, since using the legs to attack the opponent's joints is difficult if the opponent is moving around, Daito-ryu moves to throw them down in front of you first. Apparently, also unlike Ueshiba, Sokaku's techniques always finished in a pin, and he would throw the opponent down sharply at his feet. Although Sokaku would use his hands to perform atemi while setting up a technique, the real attack came afterwards, at which time he would use his legs to attack the opponent's joints. When you watch Sokaku's techniques, as preserved within the Takumakai, it actually looks as if the standing techniques are merely set ups for the pinning techniques, rather than the other way around (from my observation).
    Hi Nathan and all,

    It's been awhile and hope all of you had a great holiday and New year.

    Nathan, could you elaborate a little more on what Hisa meant regarding the use of the legs and body to attack the joints? I think I know what he is saying but wanted to see if you had more information regarding that.
    Sincerely,

    Eric Joyce
    Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:06.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Kit, good points. Thanks.

    Eric, all I have to go on is what has been publicly published when it comes to Hisa and the Takumakai. I would guess it means that the goal of Daito-ryu waza is to attack the joints (joint lock controls and/or dislocations) using the legs rather than the arms (which means attack the joints in the context of pinning techniques, since the use of legs against the joints would be easier).

    The main emphasis of Daito-ryu techniques in recent generations, from my observation, is to control/pin the opponent, rather than to kill or seriously injure them. So we could presume that in recent generations attacking the joints means using the legs to apply joint locks. On the other hand, there is of course an allowance for the escalation of force should it become necessary, due to:

    1) Incorrect, incomplete, or ineffective application of a controlling technique.

    2) The seriousness of the situation (armed with a gun, bladed weapon, etc.).

    3) Battlefield applications, modern or otherwise.

    4) The threat of multiple opponents.

    In these cases the legs may be incorporated to dislocate the joints, break bones, and apply finishing blows (ie: kicks, stomping their guts out, etc.).

    In general, an escalation of force would include strong atemi to vital areas (causing serious bodily injury or death); chokes; dislocation/breaking of the joints or bones (disabling parts of their body to remove or reduce the likelihood or effectiveness of further attacks); concussing or crushing the head/neck through throws; stabs, cuts, or decapitations using bladed weapons. These are all understood to be options, but are not always taught explicitly (at least at all levels) in modern times.

    Historically, we know that Sokaku used all of these methods at one time or another through the stories of his exploits and an analysis of his techniques.

    During multi-person attacks, Sokaku used both evasive slipping movements combined with short-throws and/or atemi, or, entangled/piled the opponents at his feet in front of him, depending on the opportunities of the situation. For multi-person attacks involving evasive movement the goal would shift to damaging the opponent from a standing position due to the reduced time and opportunity to deal with each person - and of course, the tactic of taking opponents out of the mix upon first contact, rather than allowing them to attack repeatedly.

    Furthermore, there are many other examples within Daito-ryu and Aikido where the arms or weapons are used for finishing blows and breaks rather than the legs. I could be completely wrong, but I suspect that pins with the arms are taught as basic pins, and pins with the legs are taught only after pins with the arms are mastered (within the Takumakai curriculum at least).

    In any event, the idea of completely controlling of "attacking the joints" once the opponent is on the ground is actually consistent (for the most part) with what can be seen in other branches of Daito-ryu, including Aikido. In other branches, the standard atemi and pressure point attacks performed from the standing position are usually applied in order to distract the opponent (ie: backhand to the eyes) and/or weaken their strength so that a throw or control can be performed with minimal resistance. It is usually on the ground the opponent is then either pinned, damaged, struck, or killed. Other branches, including Aikido, also make use of the legs for atemi and joint attacks, but they definitely don't emphasize it as much as the Takumakai lines.

    PS - There is a little more information on this subject in the Takumakai thread:

    Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai

    Regards,
    Thanks Nathan. That's what I thought. I also had another interpretation in mind when I saw that statement by Hisa. I will take a look at the link you provided.
    Sincerely,

    Eric Joyce
    Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    According to Hisa, Sokaku taught to use the legs and body to attack the opponent's joints, rather than the arms, which are the weakest of the four limbs. However, since using the legs to attack the opponent's joints is difficult if the opponent is moving around, Daito-ryu moves to throw them down in front of you first. Apparently, also unlike Ueshiba, Sokaku's techniques always finished in a pin, and he would throw the opponent down sharply at his feet. Although Sokaku would use his hands to perform atemi while setting up a technique, the real attack came afterwards, at which time he would use his legs to attack the opponent's joints. When you watch Sokaku's techniques, as preserved within the Takumakai, it actually looks as if the standing techniques are merely set ups for the pinning techniques, rather than the other way around (from my observation).
    So the highlighted part doesn't simply mean that the power for a standing technique is generated from the ground up through the legs and body, and the arms are relaxed during the technique?

    I can get behind the idea of using the legs for a pin or finishing move, but once the guy is on the ground, it seems like use of the legs is in the realm of "finishing sugar". You could just stab the guy in the neck or something.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    So the highlighted part doesn't simply mean that the power for a standing technique is generated from the ground up through the legs and body, and the arms are relaxed during the technique?

    I can get behind the idea of using the legs for a pin or finishing move, but once the guy is on the ground, it seems like use of the legs is in the realm of "finishing sugar". You could just stab the guy in the neck or something.
    That was my other interpretation too Cliff. Based on my exposure to DR and learning those "internal workings" to generate power, grounding, strong posture, etc., I was wondering if that also what Hisa and Takeda meant.
    Sincerely,

    Eric Joyce
    Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Yeah Chris, that's exactly it, isn't it? I always thought is was strange that Ueshiba chose an unrelated art like Kashima Shinto-ryu as the sword influence for Aikido though. I guess any sword training is better than none, but I would think that Shinto-ryu would not be nearly as compatible as a Shinkage-ryu or Itto-ryu line.
    Kashima Shinto ryu fits perfectly for me because I think two things:

    1) Takeda's sword was highly influenced by Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu...it was like gokui for him.

    2) For a warrior shamen like Ueshiba, Takemikazuchi no Kami is a good deity to "get right with."

    I've got no facts to back these assertions up with, just saying, it makes sense to me.

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