New Doshin So DVD unfortunate imagery

[David Dunn]

http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/...korozashi.html

Seriously guys, don't you take any advice? This does not translate well.

http://www.creativereview.co.uk/imag...orts-event.jpg

[Tripitaka of AA]

It will probably end up being used in College courses on Advertising and Media. Not a good juxtaposition of pose and logo. People involved in publishing and media need to be sensitive to the possibilities for misinterpretation.

Just the arm position is enough for people to see a Nazi connotation, even without the Maji. See this story to explain this picture;



Looking for another example of Hitler's pose, I came across this which made me chuckle;

[atonfrc]

I think was a unfortunately coincidence...

[David Dunn]

I think was a unfortunately coincidence...

I'm sure it was, but it is nevertheless careless.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

What imagery?

[Tripitaka of AA]

The power of the internet. The item has been withdrawn from sale, so no imagery is now visible. Perhaps the cover will be redesigned. That would be expensive.

[dirk.bruere]

I guess that's why there isn't much imagery from the 1985 Taikai.
The Budokan decked out in Swastika flags while the man and woman at the front reciting the Dokun giving the Hitler salute to the people on stage, including one zillionaire war criminal.
At least, that might be the uncharitable assumption of an uneducated Westerner who did not know SK

[Steve Williams]

It's actually quite sad that people only associate the swastika with the Nazi movement. Hitler took a symbol that was well established in many societies and corrupted it. It is wrong that we as [supposedly] broad minded and [supposedly] intelligent individuals continue to make reference to it "mainly" as a nazi symbol. Therefore perpetuating the "evil" connection and not the "good" one.
As David N said sometimes the raised arm is enough, but if you look enough (and sometimes not looking too far) then you can find an image to fit anything you wish to portray......
In that way it could even be implied that Martin Luther King was a nazi [which obviously he wasn't].....

In actuality the raised arm pose is common to any good public speaker who can hold the attention of and enthrall a crowd of onlookers or supporters.

Maybe through people talking about the swastika's original and "pure" meaning then we can start to change the misconceptions that the nazi party created?

Wikipedia has a brilliant page about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

I agree that the original image was misplaced, however this was for the asian/japanese market, to be sold (95%+) in Japan/Asia, so there the "evil" use of the symbolism means nothing and to be honest was probably not even considered.

[Tripitaka of AA]

When I did a Google Image search for "Hitler Salute", it came up with Obama and George W Bush, among others, captured in mid-flow during a speech with their arm outstretched. In all cases, the understood inference and use of the image was to draw comparisons with the Nazi dictator. None of them needed a Manji to complete the effect (you'll note that the garden gnomes I posted earlier didn't need one either). The simple salute, outstretched arm slightly above horizontal, is one of those lasting images of the Nazi. Hitler was an amazing politician, with an eye for symbolism and iconography. His theft of the Swastika to make the hakenkreuze, his use of eagles and Roman logos, the way he used flags and massed ranks of synchronised troops. All astounding and lasting images that conjure up dreadful memories for anyone of my parents generation.

I've been an advocate of trying to retake the Manji, to bring it back to its original meaning through education and positive association. The outstretched arm salute is a simple physical state that can probably find its way back into acceptability, as we all do it all the time without noticing. Tyrants and PR people shouldn't be able to buy copyright to the use of innocent images for their own purposes, without us having the right to gain them back again when we are ready. I'm very pleased to note that the Union Jack flag has been able to make a return to use in the last few years after having become exclusively associated with extreme right-wing politics (NF, BNP, etc). It can be done.

The cover of the So Doshin DVD was a mistake. I have to assume it was a picture chosen for the right reasons, by people who just didn't see a comparison with Hitler.

The Queen (sort of, it's from a play)


George W Bush


Chinese government officials being sworn in.


The Pope


1980s London Skinheads

[Steve Williams]

The cover of the So Doshin DVD was a mistake. I have to assume it was a picture chosen for the right reasons, by people who just didn't see a comparison with Hitler.

Totally agree

[dirk.bruere]

It's actually quite sad that people only associate the swastika with the Nazi movement.

Actually these days most people know the difference between a Nazi Swastika and a "normal" one. You go to newage kind of shops and you can usually find Swastika jewellery.
That's one of the reason I am pissed off with Honbu for dropping it. They suddenly have an attack of "Western sensibilities" when it no longer matters. So instead of a powerful universal symbol we now have something about as inspiring as a McLogo.

[Rob Gassin]

Actually these days most people know the difference between a Nazi Swastika and a "normal" one.

Dirk,

This might be so in parts of England but is certainly not so in the US or Australia. Even in England, I am sure that a lot of Jews would take offence to the use of the Manji.

I certainly have no big issue with the current SK logo.

Cheers,

[derobec]

The outstretched arm salute is a simple physical state that can probably find its way back into acceptability, as we all do it all the time without noticing. Tyrants and PR people shouldn't be able to buy copyright to the use of innocent images for their own purposes, without us having the right to gain them back again when we are ready...

The cover of the So Doshin DVD was a mistake. I have to assume it was a picture chosen for the right reasons, by people who just didn't see a comparison with Hitler.

1980s London Skinheads

Hi David,

I'm pretty much with you on this (and do enjoy your posts), but I don't quite understand why you used this paticular picture when you were stating that people should be able to reclaim this "outstretched arm salute" . Surely while the other photos that you posted could be taken and/or used out of context, the 'iron cross' around the young lad's neck in the 'skinhead' photo leaves no room for confusion.

Maybe I'm just missing your train of thought on this occassion but you appear to be suggesting that the skinhead photo is as innocuous in it's intention as the other images...

Regards,
William

[Tripitaka of AA]

Ah, I see your point, William. My posts are often written in haste and what might seem like a carefully structured train of thought are more usually the debris of a train wreck. The pictures in that collection all came up on the first page of a google search of "Hitler Salute", together with lots of the ghastly Bavarian himself and loads of others. If I had a point at all, it would have been to show an example of the kind of idiots that would actually do the "Nazi Salute" on purpose, as opposed to those who were caught doing it inadvertently. The image of a pretend Queen Elizabeth, was apparently doing a Nazi Salute as part of a satire on politics/monarchy/whatever - so "she" was also doing it on purpose, but a different one. As it stands, I don't have any affection for that salute and see no need to bring it back. But I imagine it might find a new meaning for someone some day. The Manji has more "right" to make a comeback, as it was around for so many years in so many different cultures with a proper history, way, way before Charlie Chaplin stole it. My wife was raised in Japan and tells me that she had never seen the straight arm salute before she came to Britain. She was unaware of the "meaning" until she had been here a while. Likewise the swastika/Manji.

I also note that I referred to Hitler as an "amazing politician". That may have sounded more flattering than I had intended. Alternative words such as "terrifiying, evil, deluded, insane, megalomaniac" would probably have fit better. I have no admiration for the man, but wish to protect my future by trying to understand the past. I've been reading a little more about his rise to power after I found articles drawing comparisons with Obama's current presidency. There are some interesting parallels, but I do not yet believe that the End of the World is nigh.

[jpowell]

I've been reading a little more about his rise to power after I found articles drawing comparisons with Obama's current presidency. There are some interesting parallels, but I do not yet believe that the End of the World is nigh.

Interesting parallels? Seriously?