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Thread: Terminology questions

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    Default Terminology questions

    Hello, I'm a new kenshi fortunate enough to be practicing under Ander sensei. I'm trying to learn some terminology, and I'm confused on a few points:

    Gyaku geri refers to any kick with the back leg. Correct?

    Keri age refers to a specific type of kick, regardless of which leg (front or back) is used. Correct?

    Keritsu is the command to stand up in the "square" pattern, but what's the command to stand in a semi-circle in front of the sensei? I've read it somewhere, but I don't remember and I can't for the life of me find it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enfors View Post
    Hello, I'm a new kenshi fortunate enough to be practicing under Ander sensei. I'm trying to learn some terminology, and I'm confused on a few points:

    1) Gyaku geri refers to any kick with the back leg. Correct?

    2) Keri age refers to a specific type of kick, regardless of which leg (front or back) is used. Correct?

    3) Keritsu is the command to stand up in the "square" pattern, but what's the command to stand in a semi-circle in front of the sensei? I've read it somewhere, but I don't remember and I can't for the life of me find it again.
    1) YES (assuming you are kicking forward)

    2) Yes, it is an upward kick used when the attacker/opponent is leaning forward (as opposed to kerikomi- which is "directed "through" a more vertically standing opponent (an oversimplified explanation, but I hope that does the trick for you)
    3) 起立 きりつ ● KIRITSU, actually means stand up, and does not refer to any "square pattern" though it is normally/commonly used when are "lined up", during kihon practice. I am not sure what you mean by a specific command to make a semi circle.
    Peter

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    Thanks for your reply!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    3) 起立 きりつ ● KIRITSU, actually means stand up, and does not refer to any "square pattern" though it is normally/commonly used when are "lined up", during kihon practice.
    When I wrote "square pattern", I actually meant "lined up". My bad. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    I am not sure what you mean by a specific command to make a semi circle.
    Well, if there isn't one, that explains why I couldn't find it! I seem to remember reading somewhere about a command that basically meant "stand in a semi circle in front of me so I can show you something", but perhaps I'm mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    1) YES (assuming you are kicking forward)

    2) Yes, it is an upward kick used when the attacker/opponent is leaning forward (as opposed to kerikomi- which is "directed "through" a more vertically standing opponent (an oversimplified explanation, but I hope that does the trick for you)
    3) 起立 きりつ ● KIRITSU, actually means stand up, and does not refer to any "square pattern" though it is normally/commonly used when are "lined up", during kihon practice. I am not sure what you mean by a specific command to make a semi circle.
    Hi Peter,

    Ever after 20+ years, the nomenclature of SK kicks still sometimes confuses me. As an example, in karate, a front kick is mae geri. In contrast, in SK, the name refers to the leg with which it is delivered (jun or gyaku) and/or the trajectory of the kick (keriage or kerikomi). There is no specific name for a front kick.

    My confusions are as follows -
    1. can other kicks such as sokuto geri also be described to kerikomi or keriage, depending on their trajectory?
    2. When jun and gyaku geri are mentionned in the curriculum, does it always refer to front kicks or is there some flexibility in the choice of kick (eg gyaku mawashi geri for keriten san). Your opinion is appreciated.

    BTW, I'm currently visiting your beautiful native country. It's 3am , I'm in Charlottetown, P.E.I. and am suffering insomnia - could not think of anything better than checking E-Budo

    Cheers,
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Hi Rob,

    Say hello to Anne for me and buy her a bloody ice cream so she will stop wailing!!

    Let me preface with this. Grammar rules are a poor description of how language is used… And I think this concept applies very much to SK in that since it is still taught in an oral tradition, and I think that kenshi overseas are more focussed on this kind of thing because of the lack of continuous contact to the oral tradition and the need - particularly at higher levels for copious notes- because of the lack of contact. To illustrate my point, I must tell you that between shodan and 2-dan, I almost never looked at the curriculum and have no notes. basically if I could not remember something, there was always instant access to someone who could answer that question and demonstrate (including three others who were testing with me.

    SO I have never really thought about your questions, which is why my answers will probably be inadequate- that being said, my thoughts are:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    1. can other kicks such as sokuto geri also be described to kerikomi or keriage, depending on their trajectory?
    I have never heard that (sokuto geri described as kerikomi or keriage). I think that it is because the body mechanics (kerikomi being a more powerful kick driving through the target) are somewhat different while sokuto geri is the "same kick", only changes according to height of the kick. Does that make sense??


    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    2. When jun and gyaku geri are mentionned in the curriculum, does it always refer to front kicks or is there some flexibility in the choice of kick (eg gyaku mawashi geri for keriten san). Your opinion is appreciated.
    Perfect question, because when I was doing 2-dan, this came up. There were two answers: 1- basically, anything that works is fine. 2) If it is for testing, it must be a front kick unless specifically indicated that it is another type of kick.

    The "basic" kick is a front kick, unless otherwise specified. IMO they are very fussy about it for testing is that if your distancing or footing is "wrong" (i.e.- you back away- move to the side too much, you cannot do a front kick. So this forces you to be disciplined in resisting the impulse to back too far away from the attacker) and pay attention to distancing and footwork and body positioning.

    But in any case, what I was told is it must be a front kick (though some teachers may let it go at testing-espicially at lower dan level, because afterall SK is dynamic and things like variations in height, etc can come into play).

    Would like to hear your comments.

    Cheers

    Peter
    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    Say hello to Anne for me and buy her a bloody ice cream so she will stop wailing!!
    Anne is very well and not wailing as much these days. She enjoyed the ice cream (you do realiseeveryoneelseonthis forum will haven idea what we're talking about

    With regards to sokuto geri, IMO, it can de defensive such as in uchi uke geri or offensive, such as in sashikae sokuto geri. Although sokuto geri is usually a kick though (keri komi) kick, It could be argued that in uchi uke geri, it could be used as a keri age.

    With regards to keri ten san, a senior WSKO instructor (I think it's also in the 'Goho' book) advisedusthat in the kyohan, jun keri age is mentioned but that these days,most people use jun mawashi geri. His view was that the correct kick depended on circumstances and that we shouldn't be too 'anal' about it all.

    Cheers, Rob (signing off from Montreal Airport)
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    With regards to sokuto geri, IMO, it can de defensive such as in uchi uke geri or offensive, such as in sashikae sokuto geri. Although sokuto geri is usually a kick though (keri komi) kick, It could be argued that in uchi uke geri, it could be used as a keri age.
    I agree with you description of that sokuto geri could be both offensive and defensive. Just to add to the confusion regarding terminology the correct name for "sokuto geri" is actually "yoko geri". In Kyohan's description of kihon there are (just as it is listed in the Tokuhon) no sokuto geri among the kicking techniques, it is just called yoko geri (and in the explanation it says that you hit with sokuto or sokutei).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    With regards to keri ten san, a senior WSKO instructor (I think it's also in the 'Goho' book) advisedusthat in the kyohan, jun keri age is mentioned but that these days,most people use jun mawashi geri. His view was that the correct kick depended on circumstances and that we shouldn't be too 'anal' about it all.
    Just to clarify if it was the attack or the counter you were referring to. In the attack it would be gyaku keri age. Actually in Kyohan it says "... migi ashi keri age no san renko" for the attacker. For the defender it just states "migi ashi keri age". However, the pictures for keriten san (for those that have not read Kyohan you should know that most hokei don't have any pictures describing them) clearly show mawashi geri both for the attack and the defense. In the technical DVDs that hombu made i think they show both with gyaku geri and mawashi geri for attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    Cheers, Rob (signing off from Montreal Airport)
    And I am in Doha (Qatar) right now, waiting for my next flight on the way to Japan.

    @Peter. I will travel down to Tadotsu on the 18th, not sure when I will arrive but likely in the afternoon/evening, but only stay until mid day the 19th (having some short meeting at hombu). So I probably won't have the time to visit Takamatsu, would have been to see you.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
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    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Default More questions

    What does "yori" in "sashikomi ashi yori keri age" mean? I know what the other words mean, but according to the dictionary I'm using, "yori" means "twist / vertical arm", which doesn't fit in this context. I'm guessing it means something like "and", "then" or "followed by". Am I correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    I agree with you description of that sokuto geri could be both offensive and defensive. Just to add to the confusion regarding terminology the correct name for "sokuto geri" is actually "yoko geri". In Kyohan's description of kihon there are (just as it is listed in the Tokuhon) no sokuto geri among the kicking techniques, it is just called yoko geri (and in the explanation it says that you hit with sokuto or sokutei).
    I did not mean to imply that sokuto/yoko geri could not be a defensive kick, but as Rob says, "It could be argued that in uchi uke geri, it could be used as a keri age," but I still see it more "similar" to kerikomi in that the it drives through the target more than keriage...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    "sokuto geri" is actually "yoko geri".
    yes, and to add to that confusion people here regularly use both terms interchangeably



    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    Just to clarify if it was the attack or the counter you were referring to. In the attack it would be gyaku keri age. Actually in Kyohan it says "... migi ashi keri age no san renko" for the attacker. For the defender it just states "migi ashi keri age". However, the pictures for keriten san (for those that have not read Kyohan you should know that most hokei don't have any pictures describing them) clearly show mawashi geri both for the attack and the defense. In the technical DVDs that hombu made i think they show both with gyaku geri and mawashi geri for attack.
    LOL, which means that technically it should be a "straight" kick"(Kyohan reigns supreme).... right? LOL


    @ ANders, I think you have my mobile but just in case I PMed & emailed it to you. Give me a call as your schedule permits- mine will be tight as well as my university is hosting a symposium and I am presenting/hosting and "entertaining" .

    Cheers

    Peter
    Peter

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