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Thread: Danzan Brawl Scenarios?

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    Default Danzan Brawl Scenarios?

    Danzan-Ryu has a number of named techniques in which the attacker is not subdued by the first defense technique. In these techs., uke gets up and attacks again.

    Are these sorts of multiple-technique scenarios taught in koryu schools, or are these scenarios innovations by Prof. Okazaki?

    Jeff Slade

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    Default Could be

    I would think it's more an influence of Judo on Danzan ryu than anything else. The attacker not being stop at the first defense is more realistic I think then simply preforming a waza set or kata in which the person stops at the first moment of contact.
    James L. Fitzgerald
    Senso Ryu (99/03)
    Hakuho ryu Indy study group
    http://thejumonkan.webs.com

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    Default Judo?

    How does that show a judo influence? I don't know of any Kodokan kata that depicts an ongoing-fight (multiple-tech.) scenario, and the idea of Ippon seems to be in line with the idea of a one-technique finish.
    Jeff Slade

    "It doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to hurt." -- Dave Martin

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    Beer Never mentioned kata

    Judo has kata yes but there is also randori or free practice and when Ozeki was in Japan (1924) the modern Judo rule set was not put in place for another year (1925). Ozeki was only in Japan for a year so he would have been exposed to the early rule set where you had to score more than one Ippon and transititioning to Newaza or pulling guard was allowed and in Kyoto very popular (see Kosen rules). A continuing attack in a "brawl" set up is to me something similar to randori to me anyway. Now whether Ozeki came up with it or not I have no idea but from my limited exposure to koryu there is no continuing attack after a waza or technique has been applied, with the expection of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu where once and oppoent is down or in a technique they will still try to kick you or grab you allowing you to transitition to some of the strange pins and intanglements they have, because it's assumed your technique or waza would hinder, cripple or subdue the attacker. As I said those my exposure to Koryu is very limited and I could be completely wrong.
    James L. Fitzgerald
    Senso Ryu (99/03)
    Hakuho ryu Indy study group
    http://thejumonkan.webs.com

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    Default Judo has continuing attack scenarios

    One has only to look kimeno-kata or Kodokan goshin jutsu to see multiple attack schemes. OK in Judo we do not believe that single strike will immobilize attacker but belive that a decent lock will do that

    In juno-kata there are actually multiple attack - counterattack - reactionaryattack scenarios. Traditional slow pace of performance will often mislead the casual observer.
    Esa Vakkilainen
    Even professors do make mistakes

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wreckedlumbar View Post
    Danzan-Ryu has a number of named techniques in which the attacker is not subdued by the first defense technique. In these techs., uke gets up and attacks again.

    Are these sorts of multiple-technique scenarios taught in koryu schools, or are these scenarios innovations by Prof. Okazaki?

    Jeff Slade
    There are several koryu which have in their basic kata, uke reacting to tori's action upon which tori changes his technique to control uke.
    Kiraku-ryu and Fusen-ryu are two that I know of but there must be more.

    Happy landings,

    Johan Smits

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    Hi Johan

    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu also has Ukemi responses in its early and advanced Kata.Also in the advanced kata called Shiai Ura there are reversals to earlier kata.
    Kind Regards
    Lee Masters
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Tenyokai International

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    Hi Lee,

    And that is coming from a formal practitioner of koryu jujutsu. I could not imagine otherwise. I mean those styles were developed out of necessity so naturally they were not going to take things for granted and had build in techniques for all sorts of eventualities.

    Maybe that is from the outside - when you just look at techniques being performed - an opportunity to see what is authentic and what not.

    Ever seen Redbeard from Kurosawa starring Toshiro Mifune? One of the most beautiful (albeit short) jujutsu brawls I have ever seen is pictured in that movie. I wonder if Toshiro Mifune had any training in jujutsu and than in what style? He trained in TSKSR for the movie " seven samurai" under Sugino maybe he even learned some jujutsu from that style?

    Happy landings,

    Johan

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    Hi Johan

    Being a osteopath, I particularly liked your reference to Redbeard as he is a doctor/bone setter,of which before the 1900s Tenjin Shinyo Ryu included bone setting in its syllabus.
    Kind Regards
    Lee Masters
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Tenyokai International

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ree View Post
    Hi Johan

    Being a osteopath, I particularly liked your reference to Redbeard as he is a doctor/bone setter,of which before the 1900s Tenjin Shinyo Ryu included bone setting in its syllabus.
    That is actually the best of both worlds is it not? As far as I know in modern jujutsu styles this connection is absolutely lost. Danzan-ryu is an exception I think. Okazaki sensei from Danzan-ryu was a chiropractor I believe and ran a health institute.

    Lee I think I read that Kubota sensei teaches kuatsu at the Kodokan in clinics but that is for judoka. Is there still a ' health component" in existence in TSR these days?

    Happy landings.

    Johan

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    Johan

    There is still a health compont in TSR particularly at the Tenyokai International as both my father and myself are osteopaths.So when teaching SaKappo(Killing/living methods) we also explain the wesrtern and eastern physiology of what is happening.As far as I know Kubota Shihanke has retired from teaching Katsu/Kappo at the Kodokan I think do not quote me.
    Kind Regards
    Lee Masters
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Tenyokai International

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    Lee,
    do the students of the Tenyokai International realize how fortunate they are?
    If not, tell them I said so
    (This is a bit off-subject but too good to let it rest).
    Is it known where these health methods came from?
    Yoshin-ryu or Shin-no-shindo or from somewhere else?

    Happy landings.

    Johan

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    Johan
    Picking my brains eh.

    Basically originally from Yoshin Ryu but further developed in Shin no Shindo Ryu continued by Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
    Oh I am so very much lucky
    Kind Regards
    Lee Masters
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Tenyokai International

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    " Mastaah shall I beatimup?"

    Sorry could not help that.

    While on the subject of picking your brains: Correct me if I am wrong but Shin no shindo-ryu originated from a police-officer. From published writings by your father I think there is still (for insiders) a clear picture what of the TSR curriculum came from SnSr.
    Was there anyting for brawl scenarios (back on subject) in that school? I can imagine there would be.

    Happy landings.

    Johan

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    Johan

    Yes Shin no shindo ryu was formed by a police man and yes the teachings both techniques and the Okugi are within the TSR syllabus.
    I dont know about SnSR dojo brawls but of course Iso Mataemon went on a Muga Shugyo (fighting and researching around Japan).
    I myself in my Karate days went to many different dojo of the U.K. sparring/researching with other Goju Ryu groupes.Those were the days
    Kind Regards
    Lee Masters
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Tenyokai International

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