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Thread: Officer Safety: Former Military/LEO Chris Dorner rampage

  1. #16
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    Hi David,

    Yeah - pretty much. But at least with that high a bounty, even the anti-police people will sell out and provide information.

    This guy REALLY needs to get caught. There are well over 50 security details on various at-risk officers, not including officers at each station assigned to station defense duties as well as other critical LE structures.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #17
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    Dropping the hammer in that case is totally unacceptable, violating one of the primary rules of basic firearms training that one must be sure of ones target before pulling the trigger-a classic case of fear biting and probably a function of the overall poor training that larger agencies usually receive. Citizens SHOULD get big payouts for egregious behavior such as this on the part of officers - maybe a more serious approach to training in shoot-no shoot decision making will result.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  3. #18
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    Well, I'm pretty sure even the guys in the large departments are trained in the basic firearm rules. My guess is that the last officers to be sure of their target (in Corona) ended up getting ambushed as they turned a corner and ended up with a windshield riddled with rifle rounds, grazing one of them in the head hard enough to bruise the officer's brain. Based on the circumstances in Torrance, it doesn't sound like the officers there would have ever seen their target visually prior to coming under heavy fire themselves. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence that the vehicle was the target vehicle, and obviously the officers in both cases held the reasonable belief that the vehicle was the target vehicle.

    SURE of their target? No. Shouldn't have happened? Yes. But it did, and I can sympathize with what the officers must have been thinking - and can also sympathize with how they must be feeling now. And by the way, the fact is the women driving in the blue truck violated certain rules of the road that contributed to elevating the level of stress at the scene. The shooting may not have happened at all if they had been driving down the street normally.

    Anyway, Dorner car-jacked a couple of cars in Big Bear a few hours ago, tied a couple of people up, then was pursued into a vacant cabin. A 30 minute firefight with police followed, resulting in the death of one San Bernadino County Deputy, and the serious injury of another (that makes 4 murders and 2 shooting injuries so far). Dorner had silencers on his weapons, which made ID'ing the direction of fire difficult. Police deployed tear gas, and used a SWAT truck to breach the building walls, at which time they heard a single gun shot from inside the location, followed by the cabin catching fire. News is confirming that they have found Dorner's body inside the cabin. Big Bear is about a 2 hr drive from LA, and the cabin he barricaded himself in was about a half mile from where he abandoned and burned his vehicle.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  4. #19
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    Looks like the standoff ended with Dorner's charred body found in the burned-out cabin -- though the remains have not been 100% verified as being his at this moment.
    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...213309749.html
    Cady Goldfield

  5. #20
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    Nathan

    The explanation is clear, but it's not an excuse. Totally unacceptable by any standard.

    Been there and NOT done that....

    No one should get lit up for violating rules of the road. That line of reasoning is simply foolish from both a common sense and a PR perspective.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  6. #21
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    Kit, we obviously are seeing things from a different point of view, but it's not necessary to mis-phrase my statement to exaggerate my position. The new season of South Land starts in five minutes, and I for one am not interested in talking in circles on the internet. It's been a LONG friggin week.

    No one should get lit up for violating rules of the road. That line of reasoning is simply foolish from both a common sense and a PR perspective.
    That's not what I said, and it's not my point.
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th February 2013 at 03:07.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  7. #22
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    While I wasn't there, its seems on face value that the actions where not objectively reasonable, nor was death or serious bodily harm imminent. Unfortunately it shows the lack of training that police officers receive, and the lack of initiative the majority take in not seeking out training on their own.
    Greg Quaresma

  8. #23
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    And by the way, the fact is the women driving in the blue truck violated certain rules of the road that contributed to elevating the level of stress at the scene. The shooting may not have happened at all if they had been driving down the street normally.
    You pretty much did say that. I am not "misphrasing" you. But I appreciate that you are in the middle of all of this and probably had a hell of a week.

    Explaining why people are fear biting can walk a fine line between understanding it and excusing or rationalizing it. Sorry but this was not reasonable in a major American city in any way... especially with experienced cops on night shift who should KNOW how paper delivery people drive.

    Maybe if the vehicle, the driving and hinky factors had been there AND the newspaper guy had been a large black male... But it is clear no one saw the occupants as if they had, no shooting would have occurred.

    What you have articulated is a traffic stop - a high risk stop would definitely be warranted. But not shooting at a vehicle without any threat/target confirmation.

    Things like this are one of the very reasons I rail against the abysmal state of training for most police officers, and typically the larger the agency the worse it gets except for speciality units. I also think it is where budo concepts such as fudoshin - appropriately adapted - could make a difference.

    There are mistake-of-fact shootings that can justified, and it is perilous to weigh in not having been there. But this one just does not pass muster.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  9. #24
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    Some followup to the story.

    LAPD Officers Who Fired Over 100 Bullets at Two Unarmed Women Will Face No Charges
    Prosecutors said "barrage of gunfire was tremendous and troubling" but wasn't criminal.
    http://reason.com/blog/2016/01/29/la...er-100-bullets
    Nullius in verba

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