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Thread: New Kamokuhyo

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    Default New Kamokuhyo

    Gassho!

    Now that the new kamokuhyo is in effect (and eBudo's back ) there's a couple of questions and comments I have, after working through it the Kyukenshi part, at least.

    The first question is about the wording of the (thankfully a bit more extensive) comments on the execution of techniques. These seem to be somewhat incoherent at times. Does anyone have an explanation for that?
    Examples:
    - For kote nuki it says "grab inner wrist in jun, pull" whereas for katate yori nuki it says "grab and pull outer wrist in jun".
    - Sometimes 'katate' etc. are put in different positions, like "ryote yori nuki" but "maki nuki (ryote)".
    - In tsubame gaeshi the defense reads "uchi uke dan hangeki with shuto giri" while in chidori gaeshi it's "dan response of uchi uke to ura te uchi" (the latter one referring, I presume, to me uchi).
    I wouldn't normally see something like this as a big deal, but since there's very few 'official' information available for SK techniques and since slight differences in wording can sometimes make a big difference I'm basically going through this with a fine comb and can't help but wonder whether there's a point to these deviations

    The second question I'm rather surprised I haven't encountered earlier: Is there an official arm position called jodan gamae? We always use this for a raised front fist (as in gedan gamae chudan gamae jodan gamae) e. g. for shusha in juji and kiri nuki. In the new kamokuhyo this has various descriptions like "front hand high" (juji nuki (katate)), "keep the front hand high" (juji gote (katate)), "front fist held high" (kiri nuki (soto)) etc. and I haven't found a reference to it in other material either. Following this would be the additional question whether all of these positions are actually the same, the obvious exception being both hands raised for ryote attacks.

    The next question might be a bit more pertinent to actual technical differences: In morote juji nuki the attack is described as either pushing or pulling ("ude gyaku dori"). This is distinctly different from the old kamokuhyo where only pushing was noted. Ude gyaku dori is usually (or was) defended against using morote hiki nuki. Also IMHO the juji defense isn't very sensible against a pull. Any ideas or comments on that?
    A smaller question also for morote juji nuki and gote is the description of the attack as "grab one wrist with both hands in gyaku" what does gyaku refer to here? Obviously it can't really mean that (just) the inside of the wrist is grabbed since it's a morote attack

    Another question of that kind refers to katate oshi nuki, where the attack is described as "grab inner wrist in jun, ushiro neji age". Is that the same attack as in the kiri kaeshi techniques ("ude ushiro neji age")? We used to do it like kote maki gaeshi (no info there), i. e. grabbing the front hand in gyaku gedan gamae (from hiraki) with jun from the outside and just holding it there. The explanation was ' this used to be stopping someone from grabbing their sword'. Was that wrong or did it change ?

    In gyaku geri hiza uke nami gaeshi there is now an additional juji uke against a non-existent attack. Is that prophylactic against a possible further attack, similar to what we do in ryusui geri, or maybe rather the possibility of the keri being pulled up from kinteki (which would make this doji uke, I suppose)?

    I'm also curious about some of the empty fields. For one, there's the matter of most techniques being either from tai or hiraki gamae. Some are from both (e. g. ryusui geri (ushiro)). But many in the higher kyu ranks are missing that information altogether (e. g. the johaku techniques). Does that mean it's free? And if so, why doesn't it just say that?
    The same goes for the (mostly) empty fields for many techniques (under "kosha" and "shusha"). I understand that some techniques (especially juho waza) aren't quite as easy to put into words as others, but why are many not showing any information at all? Especially since the author's obviously went to some lengths to sensibly include more information than in the older versions.

    Lastly I'm a bit surprised about how the techniques are spread out across the grades by number. E. g. why are there so few techniques in the shodan syllabus? I'm pretty sure there's a reason for that, maybe someone knows something

    I might follow up later about the way the techniques are organized now (i. e. what went up or down, what's combined with what now or not anymore ), but maybe someone's already got some thoughts on that.

    Maybe the most pertinent question of all is that of several techniques officially having ura and omote versions now. I'll probably come back to that, too.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Wow. A post about Shorinji kempo. Hi Jan.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Default Answer?

    Wow, a reply !not exactly about Shorinjikempo. Hi David! ;-p

    JL
    Jan Lipsius
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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Gassho!

    Now that the new kamokuhyo is in effect (and eBudo's back ) there's a couple of questions and comments I have, after working through it the Kyukenshi part, at least.
    I will try and answer you Jan, I've been reading through the new kamoku a bit since I have been working on a Swedish translation since the Japanese version came out (finished now so now it is just to get a printing company etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    The first question is about the wording of the (thankfully a bit more extensive) comments on the execution of techniques. These seem to be somewhat incoherent at times. Does anyone have an explanation for that?
    Examples:
    - For kote nuki it says "grab inner wrist in jun, pull" whereas for katate yori nuki it says "grab and pull outer wrist in jun".
    I am not sure about the inconsistencies in the English version (I haven't read the English version that much, but there are a few typos in it), maybe because different people have been involved in the translation (if I remember correctly some kenshi, or rather shibu-chō, in US was involved in helping out with some parts, but I am not sure that they did it all, maybe just checked pats of the translation).
    But for your example, in the Japanese version it says for attack in kote nuki; 内手首・順引く (uchi tekubi, jun hiku) and for yori nuki it says; 外手首・順引く (soto tekubi, jun hiku)
    So I guess the inconsistency of the wording is just in the English not the original (and not in the Swedish soon to be available )


    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    - Sometimes 'katate' etc. are put in different positions, like "ryote yori nuki" but "maki nuki (ryote)".
    In this case that is just how the hōkei are named in Kyōhan. Ryōte yori nuki is listed as its own hōkei, and maki nuki has just the variations of katate and ryōte, however morote maki nuki is listed as its own.
    Why this is I guess you should have asked Kaiso.
    So the way this is used in the kamoku just follows how it is written in Kyōhan.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    - In tsubame gaeshi the defense reads "uchi uke dan hangeki with shuto giri" while in chidori gaeshi it's "dan response of uchi uke to ura te uchi" (the latter one referring, I presume, to me uchi).
    I wouldn't normally see something like this as a big deal, but since there's very few 'official' information available for SK techniques and since slight differences in wording can sometimes make a big difference I'm basically going through this with a fine comb and can't help but wonder whether there's a point to these deviations
    As for the urate uchi, that is the official name of the basic (kihon) strike, me uchi is one kind of urate uchi, but in the list of all kihon it is urate uchi that is listed (you have them all listed in the Tokuhon).
    In your examples the wording in the original is:
    Tsubame gaeshi: 内受より手刀切の段反撃 (uchi uke yori shutō giri no dan hangeki)
    Chidori gaeshi: 内受より裏手打の段反撃 (uchi uke yori urate uchi no dan hangeki)
    So once again, in the original it is worded very similar, the difference in the English is a "translation problem".


    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    The second question I'm rather surprised I haven't encountered earlier: Is there an official arm position called jodan gamae? We always use this for a raised front fist (as in gedan gamae chudan gamae jodan gamae) e. g. for shusha in juji and kiri nuki. In the new kamokuhyo this has various descriptions like "front hand high" (juji nuki (katate)), "keep the front hand high" (juji gote (katate)), "front fist held high" (kiri nuki (soto)) etc. and I haven't found a reference to it in other material either. Following this would be the additional question whether all of these positions are actually the same, the obvious exception being both hands raised for ryote attacks.
    No there are no official kamae called jōdan gamae.
    For the jūji nuki, jūji gote etc. in the original kamoku it says 前手高く (mae te takaku) this is written in the place for kamae.
    For kiri nuki it says chūdan gamae for the defender, but in the column for defence it says 前手握拳高め (mae te akken takame)

    I would say that these are the same, chūdan gamae, with the front hand held a little higher, so it is possible to grab in gyaku.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    The next question might be a bit more pertinent to actual technical differences: In morote juji nuki the attack is described as either pushing or pulling ("ude gyaku dori"). This is distinctly different from the old kamokuhyo where only pushing was noted. Ude gyaku dori is usually (or was) defended against using morote hiki nuki. Also IMHO the juji defense isn't very sensible against a pull. Any ideas or comments on that?
    I the original kamoku the attack says: 手首逆押す、または腕逆捕 (tekubi gyaku osu, mata wa gyaku dori), I would have "translated" that as "wrist in gyaku push, or ude gyaku dori"
    Regarding the attack, ude gyaku dori is mentioned as the attack in Kyōhan (it was just not mentioned in the old kamokuhyō).

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    A smaller question also for morote juji nuki and gote is the description of the attack as "grab one wrist with both hands in gyaku" what does gyaku refer to here? Obviously it can't really mean that (just) the inside of the wrist is grabbed since it's a morote attack
    Gyaku here refers to how the grab is. I think I have explained this when I have been in Berlin, what the "jun" and "gyaku" means when it is used in describing how to grab in the kamokuhyō. If you don't remember, please get a children's kamoku and look at the pictures in the first pages.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Another question of that kind refers to katate oshi nuki, where the attack is described as "grab inner wrist in jun, ushiro neji age". Is that the same attack as in the kiri kaeshi techniques ("ude ushiro neji age")? We used to do it like kote maki gaeshi (no info there), i. e. grabbing the front hand in gyaku gedan gamae (from hiraki) with jun from the outside and just holding it there. The explanation was ' this used to be stopping someone from grabbing their sword'. Was that wrong or did it change ?
    In katate oshi nuki the grab is from below in jun (that means how to grab, not front hand ) and "twist back and up" (ushiro=back, neji=twist, age=up) and it is not related to "ude ushiro neji age" as in the attack in kiri kaeshi nuki etc.
    In the original kamoku it says 内手首・下から順手・後捻上げ (uchi tekubi, shita kara jun te, ushiro neji age)
    The attack in katate oshi nuki is the same as in kote maki gaeshi.
    The explanation referring to the sword is not something that I think comes from kyōhan.


    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    In gyaku geri hiza uke nami gaeshi there is now an additional juji uke against a non-existent attack. Is that prophylactic against a possible further attack, similar to what we do in ryusui geri, or maybe rather the possibility of the keri being pulled up from kinteki (which would make this doji uke, I suppose)?
    The jūji uke has always been there, in the previous kamoku as well, so nothing new.
    It should be a shita jūji uke if the kick is a bit higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    I'm also curious about some of the empty fields. For one, there's the matter of most techniques being either from tai or hiraki gamae. Some are from both (e. g. ryusui geri (ushiro)). But many in the higher kyu ranks are missing that information altogether (e. g. the johaku techniques). Does that mean it's free? And if so, why doesn't it just say that?
    The same goes for the (mostly) empty fields for many techniques (under "kosha" and "shusha"). I understand that some techniques (especially juho waza) aren't quite as easy to put into words as others, but why are many not showing any information at all? Especially since the author's obviously went to some lengths to sensibly include more information than in the older versions.
    In most cases I think it is because there are not specified in kyōhan, so more or less "free", but many times it sort of only will be possible in some certain ways in order to do the technique correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Lastly I'm a bit surprised about how the techniques are spread out across the grades by number. E. g. why are there so few techniques in the shodan syllabus? I'm pretty sure there's a reason for that, maybe someone knows something
    If you read the "Objectives for 1 st dan" you can read (quoteing from the English version) "There are not many new techniques at this level by design, however, the shodan (1st dan) should be approached as a review of everything up to this point. ...)

    So even if it seems that you have done some reading of teh new kamoku you ahve missed some points.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    I might follow up later about the way the techniques are organized now (i. e. what went up or down, what's combined with what now or not anymore ), but maybe someone's already got some thoughts on that.

    Maybe the most pertinent question of all is that of several techniques officially having ura and omote versions now. I'll probably come back to that, too.
    Regarding ura and omote version, they have always been there (in the kyōhan) not just mentioned in the kamoku but they should have been practised anyway, just as one always should practice both right and left sides. One has probably realised that in order to get all kenshi to actually practice both sides, and all the other variations such as ura and omote, it is better if they are specified as requirements for grading.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    I hope that helped you.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
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    Default Answers!

    Gassho!

    Domo arigato gozaimashita, Sensei! This really helps a lot!
    I noticed after posting that I should've specified that I went through just the hokei part of the kamokuhyo thoroughly, because I'm compiling a list for personal use. I only browsed through the rest.
    I think it's a pretty good idea to include explicit goals for every grade, btw.

    So, to sum it up, the English kamokuhyo apparently suffers from some translation inconsistencies and it would be really, really helpful to be able to read the kyohan!
    My Japanese kamokuhyo is still on the way but that should already clear some things up, even though I won't be able to completely read it.
    I noticed a few typos in the kamokuhyo, some of them rather blatant, therefore I suspected that the inconsistencies might be unintentional as well.
    I have to say I'm a bit disappointed about the 'empty fields', though, since for those of us not in possession of the kyohan and/or the ability to read it (there really should be an English version!!!) the kamokuhyo and tokuhon are pretty much the only written sources and with these gaps and inconsistencies it can be quite hard to make head or tail of things, sometimes.
    The ura and omote are a bit weird, IMHO. Some have been taught here (in the German federation), some haven't. Some are really considered 'new', as far as I can tell.

    The fact about jodan gamae is amazing. I've been taught this way for over 13 years now !but there's always new stuff to discover. Which is a good thing, IMHO. I guess it could be called a "there is no spoon" moment.
    Also I think it's a pretty consistent and certainly much more elegant way to describe this general position. Therefore it should be put into the kyohan immediately. I'm even okay with it if I go uncredited.

    I'm still not sure that a pull is a sensible attack for juji nuki/gote (as in, I wouldn't try to apply the technique against such an attack, especially when there's defenses available that make much more sense to me), but that's the kind of stuff that needs to be worked out in the dojo. Which is where I'm not.

    Unfortunately I don't recall that lesson about gyaku and jun, but I have the children's kamokuhyo as well as my notes from two years ago back at home. Which is also where I'm not. But hopefully I'll be able to figure it out without a more practical lesson.

    I can't tell how I missed the juji uke in gyaku geri hiza uke nami gaeshi! I went through both kamokuhyos piece by piece, but I suppose it can't be avoided completely with that much ground to cover
    I have to say, though, that I'm quite certain I've never seen the technique taught that way. It also seems a bit weird to do shita juji uke with the nami gaeshi version of hiza uke, because that is usually taught from standing up straight, in my experience, which doesn't go well with shita juji. Something else I'll need to try out in practice

    There'll probably be more questions to come. It's high time for You to visit Berlin again, I think.

    Thanks again!
    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Gassho!

    Domo arigato gozaimashita, Sensei! This really helps a lot!
    Good

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    I noticed after posting that I should've specified that I went through just the hokei part of the kamokuhyo thoroughly, because I'm compiling a list for personal use. I only browsed through the rest.
    I think it's a pretty good idea to include explicit goals for every grade, btw.
    I agree, there are a few things that is very good with the new kamoku.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    So, to sum it up, the English kamokuhyo apparently suffers from some translation inconsistencies and it would be really, really helpful to be able to read the kyohan!
    Yes, I agree. I really wish I could read more Japanese, now it is basically just very basic Japanese and the kamoku (mostly read all Japanese in the kamoku, at least over 90% without needing a dictionary)

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    My Japanese kamokuhyo is still on the way but that should already clear some things up, even though I won't be able to completely read it.
    You just need to practice a bit, I learned it just by trying and looking up things.


    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    I noticed a few typos in the kamokuhyo, some of them rather blatant, therefore I suspected that the inconsistencies might be unintentional as well.
    I have to say I'm a bit disappointed about the 'empty fields', though, since for those of us not in possession of the kyohan and/or the ability to read it (there really should be an English version!!!) the kamokuhyo and tokuhon are pretty much the only written sources and with these gaps and inconsistencies it can be quite hard to make head or tail of things, sometimes.
    Well, when I started we didn't even have any Tokuhon nor did we have any official kamoku, so things are much easier nowadays. One just need to ask teachers or seniors that know, make notes and eventually one will learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    The ura and omote are a bit weird, IMHO. Some have been taught here (in the German federation), some haven't. Some are really considered 'new', as far as I can tell.
    I haven't really seen any that is new, although some, like uwa uke zuki ura, rarely was practised.
    So have you figured out the reason why one choose to do ura or omote in the case of uwa uke zuki (since both are from tai gamae)?


    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    The fact about jodan gamae is amazing. I've been taught this way for over 13 years now !but there's always new stuff to discover. Which is a good thing, IMHO. I guess it could be called a "there is no spoon" moment.
    Also I think it's a pretty consistent and certainly much more elegant way to describe this general position. Therefore it should be put into the kyohan immediately. I'm even okay with it if I go uncredited.
    Don't think that, we have 17 different kamae, Byakuren hachi jin and Giwa kyu jin ant that is it. What you are referring to as jōdan gamae is just chūdan gamae, with the hand held high. Although when doing shakujō one have a jōdan gamae, but this is not official in anyway, since there are no official ways for shakujō.


    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    I'm still not sure that a pull is a sensible attack for juji nuki/gote (as in, I wouldn't try to apply the technique against such an attack, especially when there's defenses available that make much more sense to me), but that's the kind of stuff that needs to be worked out in the dojo. Which is where I'm not.
    Well, ude gyaku dori isn't really just a pull.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Unfortunately I don't recall that lesson about gyaku and jun, but I have the children's kamokuhyo as well as my notes from two years ago back at home. Which is also where I'm not. But hopefully I'll be able to figure it out without a more practical lesson.
    I fixed an image for you, and everyone else that wants to know.
    Attachment 10668

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    I can't tell how I missed the juji uke in gyaku geri hiza uke nami gaeshi! I went through both kamokuhyos piece by piece, but I suppose it can't be avoided completely with that much ground to cover
    I have to say, though, that I'm quite certain I've never seen the technique taught that way. It also seems a bit weird to do shita juji uke with the nami gaeshi version of hiza uke, because that is usually taught from standing up straight, in my experience, which doesn't go well with shita juji. Something else I'll need to try out in practice
    Well if you haven't seen it taught that way you have either not looked carefully enough, or you you haven't been taught it correctly.
    And you should be pretty straight when doing shita jūji uke, just bending the knees.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    There'll probably be more questions to come. It's high time for You to visit Berlin again, I think.
    Been a lot of travel lately, UK, Japan, Finland already so far this year, Italy in April and Japan again in August. But I've heard that Hiate-sensei might come to Berlin later this year so you never know, maybe I can make it. Depends a little on time, but also finance of course, this year is digging a bit in the pocket.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Thanks again!
    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    You are welcome.

    Just to add some thoughts on the new kamokuhyō here are a few things that I think are really good improvements.

    Specifying that one need to do both left and right sides for each exam is good. Even if that was practised in many branches, since it wasn't an official requirement for the exam tests a lot of kenshi never practised more than one side. The same goes for clearly listing the ura and omote versions.

    Another thing is to have dō keri and dō tsuki as an requirement for the first kyū grades.

    The new way for kumi embu for grading tests is very good it will be more like a proper embu (although according to one friend in Japan it is a bit harder to judge in exams, since one should evaluate both technical accuracy and the overall appearance just as in competition but for both kenshi separately).
    As a note to those who have kids class I can inform you that the kumi embu for kids will also be changed to this way, in Japan I think they have already printed out the new so it will be in use from April this year.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
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    Default Late answer

    Gassho!

    Apparently eBudo ate my earlier reply, hmm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    So have you figured out the reason why one choose to do ura or omote in the case of uwa uke zuki (since both are from tai gamae)?
    I guess that's because one starts from zenkotsu and the other from kokutsu dachi.


    Don't think that, we have 17 different kamae, Byakuren hachi jin and Giwa kyu jin ant that is it. What you are referring to as jōdan gamae is just chūdan gamae, with the hand held high.
    Well, it could be argued that gedan gamae is basically just chūdan with the hand held low (and twisted in a bit), but it was just a joke, anyway.


    Well, ude gyaku dori isn't really just a pull.
    That doesn't change the fact that at least in my opinion juji nuki/gote are much better suited against a pushing attack, whereas ude gyaku dori (and other pulls) is much better defended against using katate hiki nuki (or maki gote) where it's also listed as the (only) official attack.

    I fixed an image for you, and everyone else that wants to know.
    Wow, thanks! That's extremely helpful.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    I guess that's because one starts from zenkotsu and the other from kokutsu dachi.
    Good guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that at least in my opinion juji nuki/gote are much better suited against a pushing attack, whereas ude gyaku dori (and other pulls) is much better defended against using katate hiki nuki (or maki gote) where it's also listed as the (only) official attack.
    Well, you are of course allowed to have that opinion , but I think it is good that one study from different ways. Try to do jūji gote against ude gyaku dori and you will learn some more.


    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Wow, thanks! That's extremely helpful.
    You are welcome.

    So, anyone else have any opinions or thoughts regarding the new kamoku?

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
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    I am still going through the new curriculum and haven't completely organized my thoughts yet. A few early reactions:
    - I think that the learning curve up to 3-kyu in the previous curriculum was too steep, leading to either a very low standard for the 3-kyu test, or a long delay before taking it (I generally took the latter approach). I like the addition of extra levels before 3-kyu, but am not sure that we had to add 3 of them to achieve the desired result.
    - Ude juji appears twice (6-kyu and 3-kyu). At 6-kyu, the curriculum simply says "ude juji gatame, renko", while at 3-kyu it says "ude juji gatame continued to tate gassho gatame". Am I correct in assuming that that the 6-kyu version leaves out the takedown (i.e., ude juji gatame is simply done as a standing lock) while the 3-kyu version includes the takedown and tate gassho gatame? If so, this is a welcome improvement - I think that the takedown following ude juji was too risky for new beginners.
    - I like the specification of both left and right sides in the exams. I have met too many Kenshi at lower levels who looked at my like I was crazy when I said "let's switch hands, my wrist is getting sore."
    - I have one major question so far. Uchi oshi uke zuki is listed in the 3-kyu curriculum. Should this really be uchi oshi uke geri? This would make more sense as uchi oshi uke geri is at the core of furi ten ni (1-kyu) but isn't listed anywhere as a separate technique. For that matter, what is uchi oshi uke zuki? I don't think it was in the previous curriculum and zuki doesn't seem to be a completely logical response after uchi oshi uke. Any thoughts on this?
    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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    Looks like I missed uchi oshi uke geri in the 2-kyu curriculum. But my question about uchi oshi uke zuki remains. Specifically is the weight moving forward or back during uchi oshi uke? Tsuki seems awkward and slow afterward if moving weight back. If moving forward, it seems hard to put force into the uchi oshi uke. Why does this technique seem so unfamiliar?
    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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    Hi Gary, good to see you posting here (again).
    I have read the new kamoku quite a bit, since I've been working on translating it to Swedish, so I think I can answer your questions.
    As for the English version I haven't read that much (started to do the translation from the Japanese version), just looked in it briefly, but have seen a couple of typos in it (there are a few typos that I have found in the Japanese version as well, but not that many).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    I am still going through the new curriculum and haven't completely organized my thoughts yet. A few early reactions:
    - I think that the learning curve up to 3-kyu in the previous curriculum was too steep, leading to either a very low standard for the 3-kyu test, or a long delay before taking it (I generally took the latter approach). I like the addition of extra levels before 3-kyu, but am not sure that we had to add 3 of them to achieve the desired result.
    As you probably know, many of us in Europe used to have a 4th kyū, as an inofficial rank, basically half the 3 kyū test, but we didn't give out certificates and made it clear that it wasn't an official rank (at least that was the case here in Sweden).
    I think that the addition of three more kyū ranks was good, it will help get the standard for those reaching shodan a lot better (I hope and think).
    The main reason for having three more kyū ranks and not just one or two, I think, is that that is what we already had for children. Also the new adults kamoku work a lot better together with the children's kamoku, making the transition over to the adult group for children much easier. Before they didn't correspond very well. Also changing so that only the youngest kids will have 8th & 7th kyū is also good (before it was up to each federation to decide if starting rank was 8th kyū or 6th kyū for children).


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    - Ude juji appears twice (6-kyu and 3-kyu). At 6-kyu, the curriculum simply says "ude juji gatame, renko", while at 3-kyu it says "ude juji gatame continued to tate gassho gatame". Am I correct in assuming that that the 6-kyu version leaves out the takedown (i.e., ude juji gatame is simply done as a standing lock) while the 3-kyu version includes the takedown and tate gassho gatame? If so, this is a welcome improvement - I think that the takedown following ude juji was too risky for new beginners.
    Yes your understanding is correct. The original (Japanese version) of the kamoku says this for ude jūji gatame:
    腕十字固より連行まで (ude jūji gatame yori renkō made), "yori" basically means "from" and "made" means "until, as far as". I think the word renkō will cause some problems since it is a word that not everyone understands, even if it was present in some places in the old kamoku as well (like okuri yubi dori yori renkō). If one look it up in a dictionary one get: 連行 [れんこう] (n,vs) taking (a suspect to the police), (P)
    I guess many kenshi will misunderstand it as something similar to "ren han kō" (連反攻) or "ni ren kō" (二連攻).

    So the 6th kyū version is just the ude jūji itself and being able to move the opponent around, "taking them to the police"
    Then we have the "old" version with tate gasshō gatame for 3rd kyū, then in the nidan kamoku we have "ude jūji gatame yori ura gasshō gatame".


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    - I like the specification of both left and right sides in the exams. I have met too many Kenshi at lower levels who looked at my like I was crazy when I said "let's switch hands, my wrist is getting sore."
    Totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    - I have one major question so far. Uchi oshi uke zuki is listed in the 3-kyu curriculum. Should this really be uchi oshi uke geri? This would make more sense as uchi oshi uke geri is at the core of furi ten ni (1-kyu) but isn't listed anywhere as a separate technique. For that matter, what is uchi oshi uke zuki? I don't think it was in the previous curriculum and zuki doesn't seem to be a completely logical response after uchi oshi uke. Any thoughts on this?
    Yes this should be uchi oshi uke zuki for 3rd kyū, very simple technique and an easy way to describe it would maybe be like an omote uchi uke zuki, but with a furi zuki as the attack and thus uchi oshi uke as the block.

    Uchi oshi uke geri is present in the 2nd kyū kamoku, so I guess you just missed that one.

    And you are correct that uchi oshi uke zuki wasn't in the old kamoku, other hōkei that now is listed i the new kamoku that weren't included in the old are machi geri, mae ude gatame, ushiro ude gatame, sankaku gatame.
    Also the rakkan appō technique 日月攻 used to be romanised "nichigetsu zeme" in the old kamoku, now it is romanised as "jitsugetsu zeme". Jitsugetsu and nichigetsu are different reading of the same kanji and both were used within Shorinji Kempo, but now hombu has decided that we should use the reading "jitsugetsu".

    I think this is another improvement, I think (haven't checked totally) that all hōkei in the Kyōhan now are listed in the kamoku, apart from the the eight techniques in Rakkan teihō.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
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    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Gassho!

    Thank you Anders for clarifying the two versions of ude juji. If I am ever attacked in my neighborhood, I will have to try using ude juji to walk the attacker 7 km to the nearest police station. Yubi dori renko might be more fun however.

    Thanks also for the information on uchi oshi uke zuki. We will spend some time getting comfortable with it.

    I have old notes on mae ude gatame and ushiro ude gatame from the pre-1986 curriculum. Sankaku gatame is a new one, but I think we have figured that out.

    One thing I like about the curriculum book is the inclusion at the end of a summary of techniques by rank. Because this was missing in the old curriculum, I have been handing out my own version of this for years. On the other hand, there are several typos in the current summary.

    Gary
    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    Gassho!

    Thank you Anders for clarifying the two versions of ude juji.
    You are welcome, but I actually mentioned three combinations since there is one in the nidan kamoku as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    If I am ever attacked in my neighborhood, I will have to try using ude juji to walk the attacker 7 km to the nearest police station. Yubi dori renko might be more fun however.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    Thanks also for the information on uchi oshi uke zuki. We will spend some time getting comfortable with it.
    Yes, it is not that strange when one have done it a couple of times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    I have old notes on mae ude gatame and ushiro ude gatame from the pre-1986 curriculum. Sankaku gatame is a new one, but I think we have figured that out.
    If you have the Kyōhan there is a picture of sankaku gatame. I did a quick google but only came up with this: http://ameblo.jp/ryuseidoujyou/entry-11342165751.html
    the picture at the bottom is sankaku gatame, but the lower part of the picture isn't really visible. It is a bit strange katame, and not so practical (in my opinion, but I haven't practised it that much, since it wasn't in the old kamoku).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    One thing I like about the curriculum book is the inclusion at the end of a summary of techniques by rank. Because this was missing in the old curriculum, I have been handing out my own version of this for years. On the other hand, there are several typos in the current summary.
    Yes, I included that in the old Swedish version we had (just as it was in the Japanese version).
    Another good thing with the new one is the "objectives" (I think that is how it is translated in the English) for each rank.
    I have seen that there are several typos in the summary of the English, another thing I miss in the English is that it doesn't include the kanji (as in the previous English versions), I've made the new Swedish one bilingual including the Japanese as well since I think it is useful.
    Also there are some inconsistencies, as been discusse a bit in this thread already, in the translation. Also I think that it sometimes is to much translated, in the way it translates some words that I think is better that we use the Japanese terminology instead.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    The same goes for the (mostly) empty fields for many techniques (under "kosha" and "shusha"). I understand that some techniques (especially juho waza) aren't quite as easy to put into words as others, but why are many not showing any information at all? Especially since the author's obviously went to some lengths to sensibly include more information than in the older versions.
    This has always been my major disappointment with SK reference material and why I've kept lots of notes and my kamokuhyo looks like a mess.
    Leon Appleby (Tokyo Ouji)
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを
    SK Blog at http://www.leonjp.com

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    Default Keri age / komi (in Ryusui geri)

    Gassho!

    Haven't looked at this in a while, so there's some new (and old) questions:
    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    In katate oshi nuki the grab is from below in jun (that means how to grab, not front hand ) and "twist back and up" (ushiro=back, neji=twist, age=up) and it is not related to "ude ushiro neji age" as in the attack in kiri kaeshi nuki etc.
    In the original kamoku it says 内手首・下から順手・後捻上げ (uchi tekubi, shita kara jun te, ushiro neji age)
    The attack in katate oshi nuki is the same as in kote maki gaeshi.
    The explanation referring to the sword is not something that I think comes from kyōhan.
    So what is this attack, exactly? The grab appears clear, then follows a twisting upward movement to the outside or inside? To the outside would make more sense, since it leads to a situation slightly resembling ude ushiro neji age, but it would make the kagite and kuzushi harder, too.

    But the main question (for now) is this: According to the new kamokuhyo, ryusui geri is practised with keri komi, not keri age, both ushiro and mae versions (old one doesn't say anything about it). We teach keri age as a quick snapping technique without full extension of the leg that can be executed at roughly arm's length. Keri komi, however, we teach as a pushing movement at full extension of the leg. The obvious relevant difference here is ma'ai: I don't see how keri komi can possibly be performed at the distance in ryusui geri (namely mae!), if it's executed without a step for shusha, namely at arm's length (or less in mae!).

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Last edited by JL.; 26th September 2015 at 20:10. Reason: Keri age / komi (in Ryusui geri)
    Jan Lipsius
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    Shorinjikempo
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    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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