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Thread: BSKF Beat WSKO

  1. #31
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    David, Toshio Sato was a kenshi at the PCL branch. I'm not sure he started in 1974, but soon after. The PCLSU magazine McGarel namechecked him in 1977. Mizuno sensei stopped being the regular instructor at PCL in 1979. There was a dojo at Blackfriars at the time, and I think he concentrated on that, while Tom Sharpe took the reins at PCL. Toshi stayed in the UK for quite a while. I believe, although I'm happy to be corrected, that he started the Bishopsgate dojo. He was General Secretary of the BSKA before Terry Goodman took over from him in about 1984, and had pieces in each of the editions of Gassho in 1983. I'll ask Mizuno sensei what became of him. All I know is that he returned to Japan. Perhaps he just ran out of visa?

    Not that many people get banned from e-budo? Tony Kehoe, Tony Leith, Adrian Simpson, Adrian Starr all spring to mind.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

  2. #32
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    Yes indeed, those names feature prominently in some of the best (and worst) threads to be found here. All of them with strong views, forthright opinions and an admirable ability to stand firm. Unfortunately, those qualities can end up in a "unstoppable force comes up against an immovable object" situation. If I recall correctly, those names all ended up falling foul of the E-Budo rule about treating other people with respect, which can be hard to do if it feels like compromising your own beliefs.

    Me? I'll compromise over everything from what to buy for supper to which political leader to vote for. I'm easily swayed and prone to capitulation. I'm no mighty Oak, but I may not be much of a Willow tree either. The fact that I'm still here may not be much of a victory if I'm all alone having conversations in the dark without anyone answering.

    David, thanks for the prompt answer regarding Toshio.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  3. #33
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    David, I'm not sure the email address I have for you is the one you still use. Could you drop me a line?
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

  4. #34
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    Cheers Dave, I hadn't heard that story about Maehara. So many people who Sensei Mizuno has helped out, just shafted him in the end eh?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    the last few days on here have been entertaining haven't they?
    As a non-Brit former kenshi, I've been watching with great interest and fascination! Its almost been nostalgic to see this forum so active again.

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  7. #36
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    .. although I wish we had separated some of the threads a bit more It all gets very confusing trying to remember which comment came from which thread.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
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    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Kari,
    I have no idea why you are so vituperative about the BSKF.
    Have you noted that my comments on BSKF in E-Budo are mostly made after someone from BSKF attacks WSKO.
    I sometimes feel the need to make the discussion less one-sided.

    It seems to me that some BSKF members are (still?) very bitter on the way things went and are going.
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

  9. #38
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    Beer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kari MakiKuutti View Post
    It seems to me that some BSKF members are (still?) very bitter on the way things went and are going.

    Hello Kari,

    I believe we trained together in Norcia in 2007 - one of the WSKO seminars I most fondly remember (although if you ate all of the lunch, afternoon training was somewhat lethargic).

    I think you'd have to go through the grinder yourself to find out what the process is like. It's not pleasant, and you are left with no "up" side. The old BSKF had many faults (many of which we've tried to remedy through its 'rebirth'), but it had many well-motivated and talented members. One thing I regret the most is that my own grading partner was so dis-heartened by the cynical manipulation and ruthless partisanship of the break-up that he now does Judo. A lot of this was due to underlying tensions within the BSKF, but WSKO's actions of playing one group off against the other created the perfect storm, and few of us thank them for it.

    [The US federation has actually suffered a similar fate to the BSKF, where a lot of the major characters in the federation have been replaced by those that WSKO feels are loyal. These major characters are no longer members of WSKO, and many of those who remain are demotivated.]

    Then there's the expensive lawyers that we've had to go up against on our own in our own time. My son was born 14 months ago, and during his earliest months I spent too much time running round writing legal documents, going to the High Courts in London, and just plain worrying. They've been using their huge financial resources to explore every legal avenue - however implausible - and we've got to respond each time.

    I guess I'd have to say that you will have to wait until the Finnish federation gets this treatment, and then you might appreciate why a few people feel they've been treated less than fairly by our one-time fellow travellers. When you have decided you've had enough of WSKO - or are purged - then look us up. Assuming that you're still training in Shorinji kempo and are true to the original philosophy, then you will be more than welcome (and indeed you're welcome to train with us in the meantime - we won't tell!). You certainly have an open invitation to Bristol, and we could talk about this at length over a beer.


    Best regards,

    Mike


    PS: In spite of all this, I am happy to talk with, train with, and cooperate with any member of WSKO who genuinely believes in the philosophy of Shorinji kempo. I am less bitter than terribly sad that a once positive organisation has become some sort of money-focussed branding machine. I have little doubt that So Doshin would look at what WSKO has become today and shudder (or just be completely mystified).
    Mike Sadler

  10. #39
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    Default jaw jaw (Winston Churchill)

    The BSKF always had some strong personalities. I clashed with most, perhaps all, of them. But, (hopefully), always with respect.

    The idea that people who don't even speak the same same language were manipulating those strong personalities from thousands of miles away seems strange.

    I wasn't involved, but it seems that the BSKF breakup wasn't that complicated. WSKO said that Mizuno Sensei had broken the rules and suspended him. Some BSKF branch masters agreed with WSKO and some didn't. The ones that didn't decided to leave WSKO.

    It appears that things got very emotional. People, (including me), are passionate about Shorinji Kempo. But the emotion in this instance doesn't seem to have any positive outcome.

    I think that there is space for a constructive discussion. Some people, both outside and inside WSKO, don't like the direction that the organisation is going in - i.e. "money focused branding machine".

    Are WSKO interested in making money? The facts don't seem to support this, for example the BSKF split and subsequent law case must have cost them a lot of money. When this was pointed out to Arai Sensei he apparently replied "what's right is right" (from Dave Dunns post).

    I remember Arai Sensei (in 1997?) saying that The Japanese Federation paid 80% of the running costs of WSKO. I don't know the current figure, but I would expect that we (WSKO) are still being heavily subsidised.

    From memory, the only income that WSKO receives from it's members is a one-off fee when you join and a percentage of each grading fee. It's been a while since I graded, but I think that I paid about £120 for the sandan grading. That is not extortionate.

    Seminars such as the recent 40th anniversary celebration are, I would assume, subsidised by WSKO. The training fee was around £100 (?), again certainly not extortionate.

    In terms of branding, WSKO members need an official dogi for seminars, which has to be ordered from Japan, and costs about £100 - £140 depending on the quality.

    I can't see that the idea that WSKO wants to make money adds up , but I agree that the subject should be open for debate.
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

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  12. #40
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    Default A wise man knows he knows nothing...

    One of the interesting philosophical points that the whole affair brought into sharp relief was how different people deal with a complete absence of knowledge. WSKO originally said that Sensei Mizuno had done something terrible and was a bad man - but would not say what it was. Eventually they said what it was, but refused to provide any evidence. For a period of months, the branch masters in the BSKF were left with nothing to make their decisions on. I observed four distinctly different behaviours in this period (roughly corresponding to the four factions):

    1) If bad behaviour is alleged, it must be proven by due process before it is believed ("innocent until proven guilty").
    2) If the behaviour correlates with what I am pre-disposed to believe, it must be true (the Daily Mail approach).
    3) If we do not know anything, we know nothing (Descartes - doubt until you can doubt no more?).
    4) It doesn't matter what the truth is: what would be the most useful to believe? (Machiavelli at his most cynical)

    Now you say that you have come to the conclusion that the BSKF breakup was very simple, even though you weren't involved and have no direct knowledge of it. You also have no reliable witnesses (I include myself in this, from your perspective). Your predicate - that a group of people 10,000 miles away cannot affect the result - is fallacious. Various WSKO people (including Yuuki So) flew to the UK on many occasions for a single meeting, and individuals were approached and given information or tasks to perform. There are many ways to influence events, and the addition of translation and cultural misunderstandings only makes them less likely to have the desired effect.

    As I've said, you haven't seen what I've seen, so I don't expect you to draw the same conclusions as I've done.


    The "right is right" comment doesn't really apply in the context I've described. The vast majority of WSKO money spent on British lawyers has been for the IP case - which is not a matter of justice, but of brand management. As such, what is "right" has nothing to do with it. The usual reason for protecting your brand is to protect your revenue stream - although I accept it could also be just pride or sentimentality in this case.

    Likewise, many of the other WSKO actions would normally be interpreted as being efforts to make money. The stipulation that you must buy dogis from Japan at £100+ (instead of £25+) would normally be interpreted as an effort to get foreign money in - and yet a very substantial part of the £100+ is for postage, money transfer and the luxuries import duty (because they are bespoke embroidered goods). This last one is only sometime applied, but at 40% it hurts when it is (one of our orders was). Is WSKO ruthlessly milking money out of the Europeans? If they are, they are not doing it very efficiently, so maybe their motives are other than financial - but I was still being told at the time that I couldn't let my kenshi (including unemployed and students) train without spending an obscene amount of money on a specific dogi. If they've relaxed that to only mean training at international seminars, then that's all to the good.

    In summary, I can't analyse WSKO's actions on a purely rational basis. Many of their actions clearly haven't achieved what they were (presumably) trying to achieve. Because of this, your are entirely right that their motives may be good - but their actions (as I've experienced them) have not been. I personally believe that you can't build a good result on good intentions alone - they need to be implemented through good actions.
    Mike Sadler

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  14. #41
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    I always knew I knew nothing. Now I feel more smug than ever.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  15. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    I always knew I knew nothing. Now I feel more smug than ever.
    If it helps you feel more smug: you are very wise indeed
    Mike Sadler

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  17. #43
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    Well, I am UKSKF and think WSKO are incompetent, so it's not just BSKF

  18. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    Who is Toshio Sato? I recall him being the right-hand kenshi at the closing ceremonies and similar events when I first started. He'd be the guy refilling the sake bottle, the "other" Japanese face alongside Mizuno Sensei. Then one day he stopped being around. I assumed he'd gone home to Japan - as so many people do when their work secondments come to an end - but was told that he'd left Shorinji Kempo after starting to teach another form of Buddhism. I wonder if you could clear that up for me. I'd hate to go on thinking something that was actually just a misunderstood comment.
    Toshio was interested in and IIRC teaching another form of Buddhism. I believe that this clashed with WSKO policy. I do not remember whether he was forced out, but he definitely left. I also recall at one UK summer camp Sensei Aosaka picking him for randoori demonstration. Toshio was quite a small man, maybe not much over 5ft. Sensei Aosakai kicked the shit out of him. I have never seen anyone beaten in public so badly. Each time he was hit Toshio would gasso rae and carry on. he did not strike back and pulled his techniques - unlike his opponent. Afterwards he was covered in bruises. So that might have influenced his decision.

  19. #45
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    Since my last post in this thread I asked about Toshio Sato. That's exactly why he left Dirk. He was one of the leading lights of the BSKF at the time and was busy building his own dojo. He was one of the original students at PCL when Mizuno sensei started in 1974, and one of the first shodans from sensei's stable. He left after the "punitive randori" (as sensei described it to me, punitive for not showing requisite respect) at summer camp, telling Mizuno sensei he could not support an organisation that allowed such people to be leaders. They lost contact after that. He wasn't the usual ex-pat kenshi, but started from scratch at PCL. He may well still be in London somewhere.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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