Rakan Teiho

[Omicron]

Choking techniques.
Some of them are in the kamoku as attacks for listed techniques. For example kubi jime, ken jime.
I have seen and tried some others, on a special camp.

Interesting. I was completely unaware that Shorinji Kempo contained any choking techniques at all...they were certainly never mentioned or even alluded to in my training. As chokes are perhaps my favourite family of techniques, I'm interested in learning more about SK's perspective on them. Any more details would be greatly appreciated

[Tripitaka of AA]

What a shame, Brady, you missed out on some fun! :P

[Omicron]

I'm sure that I did, David! I do love a good choke, and I'm sad that I missed out on the SK perspective.

I'm actually a little surprised that Shorinji Kempo doesn't place more emphasis on chokes, as they are an excellent way to subdue an attacker without causing any permanent harm, so long as the choke is released soon after loss of consciousness. Joint locks, and even strikes, can cause more serious and lasting damage. I'm glad that I have a repertoire of reliable chokes in my self-defense arsenal; despite the fact that I no longer practice Shorinji Kempo, I still try to live by a lot of its principles, including fusatsu katsujin. I don't want to smash someone's face just because he gets rowdy after a bad day at work and a few pints too many, or break limbs when I'm confronted by spur-of-the-moment road rage. Chokes are a great way to decisively end an encounter and escape to safety, with the worst outcome for the attacker being nothing more than a slight headache (and a bruised ego).

I'd love to hear some other kenshi chime in with their thoughts!

[ocatford]

I'd agree with Brady on this. I have seen a few SK chokes, and would like to work more on them.

I'm aware that MMA has given many people access to these nowadays, and you hear worrying stories about even law enforcement officers being caught out with some of the variants ("Why is this person putting their legs around my neck?").

From a student perspective, it's useful recognising the feel of a choke/strangle being applied. Whilst chokes have a dramatic physical reaction (ie - the choke) strangles can be more insidious and therefore alarming. I was taught that they can be quicker than chokes too. I remember having one applied and trying to fight it off, only to realise when I eventually tapped that I had been closer to passing out than expected.

Another point I noted was that I often got caught in guillotine chokes - something that I've noticed other kenshi do as they drop lower in response to head punches at close distance, setting us up for them.

I also like the control element of their application - against an untrained opponent they can be very effective, although most MA training teaches to suppress a panic response and denies you having to deal with this non-compliance during class as a result.

Interesting though...

[Tripitaka of AA]

Are the chokes in Shorinji Kempo the attacks to be countered, or the finishing move for a technique? I thought I remembered them being described as "basic judo chokes" which were common possible attacks ... in Japan, post-war.

[Anders Pettersson]

Are the chokes in Shorinji Kempo the attacks to be countered, or the finishing move for a technique?

Yes
But most of the Rakan Teihō I would say is the finish.

/Anders

[Omicron]

I'd agree with Brady on this. I have seen a few SK chokes, and would like to work more on them.

I'm aware that MMA has given many people access to these nowadays, and you hear worrying stories about even law enforcement officers being caught out with some of the variants ("Why is this person putting their legs around my neck?").

From a student perspective, it's useful recognising the feel of a choke/strangle being applied. Whilst chokes have a dramatic physical reaction (ie - the choke) strangles can be more insidious and therefore alarming. I was taught that they can be quicker than chokes too. I remember having one applied and trying to fight it off, only to realise when I eventually tapped that I had been closer to passing out than expected.

Another point I noted was that I often got caught in guillotine chokes - something that I've noticed other kenshi do as they drop lower in response to head punches at close distance, setting us up for them.

I also like the control element of their application - against an untrained opponent they can be very effective, although most MA training teaches to suppress a panic response and denies you having to deal with this non-compliance during class as a result.

Interesting though...

Interesting indeed! I apologize for my earlier use of shorthand—an important distinction should be made between "choke" and "strangle". The term choke applies to a technique that cuts off respiration, causing loss of consciousness due to lack of oxygen. A strangle, also sometimes called a blood choke, is a technique that interrupts blood flow to the brain, also resulting a loss of consciousness. Both ultimately deprive the brain of oxygen, but strangles are typically much faster and easier to apply. Most people can hold their breath for a minute or more, whereas the brain can only go without blood for a few seconds before loss of consciousness occurs. In BJJ, the "chokes" that we learn are almost all actually strangles. They are just that much more practical and efficient. Also, the trachea is quite easily damaged, so BJJ tends to shy away from "air chokes" for that reason as well.

I do agree that any student interested in self-defence would do well to become familiar with the feeling of being choked/strangled, especially in North America where the prevalence of high school wrestling programs means that you're likely to meet an opponent who knows at least basic holds and pins. The basic guillotine that Oliver mentions is a natural extension of the classic headlock, so a passing familiarity with it and other simple vascular submissions can't really go awry.

Are the chokes in Shorinji Kempo the attacks to be countered, or the finishing move for a technique? I thought I remembered them being described as "basic judo chokes" which were common possible attacks ... in Japan, post-war.

I'm interested in this as well! I remember learning a few techniques that were not strictly Shorinji Kempo but that were taught so that kenshi could learn the proper defense from them. I seem to remember a judo style seoi nage as being one such technique.

But most of the Rakan Teihō I would say is the finish.

Very cryptic! So does Rakan Teihō refer to the response to a choking attack, or is it a choking attack itself? Or is it a defensive choking technique used in response to some other attack...? Ahh! So many options, so many chokes...

[Rob Gassin]

Interesting indeed! I apologize for my earlier use of shorthand—an important distinction should be made between "choke" and "strangle". The term choke applies to a technique that cuts off respiration, causing loss of consciousness due to lack of oxygen. A strangle, also sometimes called a blood choke, is a technique that interrupts blood flow to the brain, also resulting a loss of consciousness. Both ultimately deprive the brain of oxygen, but strangles are typically much faster and easier to apply. ...

Brady,

I'm not sure that this is strictly correct, a 'strangle' , as you call it, does not strictly interrrupt blood flow to the brain. The force of the stroke compresses the neck veins but not the arteries. Therefore blood still flows to the head and brain but can no longer return to the heart - this is why the person being 'strangled' goes red in the face. If blood flow was interrupted, he would go white. My understanding is that no one is 100% sure if the resulting loss of consciousness is due to increased venous pressure in the brain, decreased oxygen supply resulting from the increased pressure, or some other mechanism.

Cheers,

[Kari MakiKuutti]

I'm not sure that this is strictly correct, a 'strangle' , as you call it, does not strictly interrrupt blood flow to the brain. The force of the stroke compresses the neck veins but not the arteries. Therefore blood still flows to the head and brain but can no longer return to the heart - this is why the person being 'strangled' goes red in the face. If blood flow was interrupted, he would go white. My understanding is that no one is 100% sure if the resulting loss of consciousness is due to increased venous pressure in the brain, decreased oxygen supply resulting from the increased pressure, or some other mechanism.

Test next week which colour your face goes?

[Omicron]

Brady,

I'm not sure that this is strictly correct, a 'strangle' , as you call it, does not strictly interrrupt blood flow to the brain. The force of the stroke compresses the neck veins but not the arteries. Therefore blood still flows to the head and brain but can no longer return to the heart - this is why the person being 'strangled' goes red in the face. If blood flow was interrupted, he would go white. My understanding is that no one is 100% sure if the resulting loss of consciousness is due to increased venous pressure in the brain, decreased oxygen supply resulting from the increased pressure, or some other mechanism.

Cheers,

Thanks for the clarification, Rob. I'm obviously no expert in the matter; rather, I'm just echoing what instructors have taught me throughout the years. I often wonder how many of the physiological claims made by martial artists (especially instructors) are true...

[Rob Gassin]

Brady,

My comment is also based on what I have read - in sport science articles. I am not sure that anyone has actually measured blood flow in the carotids, jugulars or brain whilst someone's being strangled
However, the concept has 'concept vallidity' that is, based on our understanding of circulation. and brain function, itmakes sense

Cheers,

[Tripitaka of AA]

I stole some quotes from this thread and raised one on Budoseek to try and get some more input on the drift about choke/strangle, but so far no-one has taken the bait.. except one who gave the gem of advice "'tis better to give than to receive". .

One thing I recall seeing about chokes, the victim will often lose effective control of various other systems on losing consciousness. Bladder control, anal sphincter, etc. So there are more aspects to training this technique than might usually be the case in a typical dojo.


Never anything [practical to add... I just like threads to keep going

[Omicron]

I just like threads to keep going

It doesn't seem like anyone else around here is interested, though

Surely there must be someone on this forum with more knowledge of Rakan Teiho...

[Tripitaka of AA]

Oh they have the knowledge, but they're on their jolly holiday, sorry, intensive training trip in Japan. The Study Session that accompanied the International Taikai. Some sore wrists and possible choke victims right about now.

[Omicron]

That makes sense. I thought it was a little quiet around here, even for E-budo. I guess it's up to us washed up kenshi to keep the place warm until everyone comes back...