I don't think beginners should be allowed to act as uke.

[pboylan]

Really, I don't. And I feel strongly that letting beginners act as uke for other beginners will only teach both of them bad habits that can take years to unlearn. The entire rant is at
http://budobum.blogspot.com/2013/09/...hy-is-one.html

[Richard Scardina]

Interesting read. But I think, in order to develop skill sets, it takes practice. Rather a Uke or Nage, practice (with proper foundations) will develop skills. In other words, "if you dont do" (practice), you wont do (be able). There is a special relationship from both roles and practice on both leads to overall perfection IMHO

[pboylan]

It's possible to make progress training with beginner uke, yes. Why would you want to do it that way if you didn't have to though? Training with experienced uke means learning the lessons several times faster without picking up a lot of bad habits that will have to be unlearned later.

[Josh Reyer]

Just to offer my experience in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu FWIW, I didn't begin learning the uchidachi side of kata until after three years of pretty constant practice (twice a week, plus two weekend practices a month). Even then, I was only to practice with people around my level or higher. It was only after a year of that kind of practice that I could start working with lower level folks, and even then under the watchful eye of Sensei or a senior. These days I can work with lower level people on my own, but to work with raw newbies, generally you need about 10 years.

And it's not just that experienced people can give better attacks as uchidachi. It's also because newbies (well, shidachi in general) are asked to go all out, with full body and spirit. Of course, they're newbies, so this can be wild, uncontrolled and, if they forget the kata or waza, unpredictable. You need to be an experienced uchidachi to be able to protect yourself.

I'm not sure much of this applies to gendai arts like judo and aikido, but perhaps it can be of some reference.

[Guy Buyens]

The role of “UKE” is important. However I think the statement “ beginners should not be given the role of uke” to be too dogmatic.

In kenjutsu, “UCHIKATA”, the one undergoing the techniques but yet guiding (in contrast to SHIKATA) plays an important role and is indeed often the more senior student. Nevertheless, and I only have limited experience from OHIR, the role of “uchikata” is also introduced at a junior stage (not necessarily by wearing onigote and challenge shikata but at least to learn the pattern).

In kata (at least in HYR) that include bojutsu or jujutsu, roles are also changed at a more junior stage. Indeed, it is useful for having the senior student take the role of “UKE”, with the junior defending and counter-attacking as “TORI”. As such, uke will help tori to perform a kata in full harmony, i.e. uke should be challenging enough to be realistic but not too much in order to allow tori, at his level, to remain within the framework of the kata (and not to improvise or use an application in order to succeed the challenge). It is nevertheless also useful for the junior student to take the role of uke to learn that part of the kata. It is unheard that in bojutsu, when bo is used against tachi, students only learn the tachi part at a late stage. It is also unheard to train for several years in jujutsu and not learn to grasp, hit and do ukemi.

Now when it comes to gendai budo, I can’t imagine in disciplines like karate, kendo, judo, not to have beginners do both uke and tori roles.

Whatever the reason, it is also important that in order to learn how to defend oneself, one learns how to attack. I think this is also a useful consideration for aikido.

[P Goldsbury]

In my own dojo I rarely allow beginners to train together. In any case, we change partners with each change of waza, so each person has the experience of training with every other person in the dojo, from total beginner to dojo chief instructor. Usually, if a beginner happens to pair up with another beginner, one of the instructors will usually join in to make a threesome.

[Guy Buyens]

In my own dojo I rarely allow beginners to train together. In any case, we change partners with each change of waza, so each person has the experience of training with every other person in the dojo, from total beginner to dojo chief instructor. Usually, if a beginner happens to pair up with another beginner, one of the instructors will usually join in to make a threesome.

This is also what we do. Nevertheless both roles (uke/uchikata and tori/shikata)are studied.

[CEB]

The role of “UKE” is important. However I think the statement “ beginners should not be given the role of uke” to be too dogmatic.

.....

If you take that quote in isolation I believe you are correct. But I think the consensus being propsed here here is beginners shouldn't uke with other beginners. The definition of beginner may need some establishment but I think this is a correct approach. Someone needs have a grasp on the mechanical principles at play or it could be a waste of time or worse .... practice of bad technique.

Practice makes permanent.

But that is just me.