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Thread: From mma to Bujinkan...

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kframe View Post

    I spent the last 1.5 years in mma to loose weight. Its working. I have lost 100lbs but I have 100 more to go. Problem is I have been to more then 2 mma gyms. MMA gyms are not stable here, they keep going out of business. That and im tired of the egos and need for dominance. Its unfortunate, but the majority of that genre of martial arts is that way.

    Well I took a BBT class, and as stated in my mt thread I enjoyed it and I felt I got something out of it. If you like what you are getting, keep doing it. Don't complicate it.

    Now my mates on sherdog are playing to my MMA training and trying to talk me out of it. Using convincing arguments, with videos. The one thing I take away from them is that the techniques are not realistic. Ahh... the Collective mentality! The "Everyone Knows" rule! The majority is often wrong. Do let your experience get fouled because of the perceptions of others. If it wasn't realistic it wouldn't have survived all these years.

    I watched there videos and I have no problems with the actual defenses vs various strikes, its what happens after words. Its the complicated repeat armlocking and movem this way and then back that way then back this way then lets throw them and kill them. I guess ill boil it down. It seams that they are using to much time from the end of the deflections of the incoming strikes, to the actual take down and defeat. TO much time spent moving various body parts. Now it may have been that video, and others I have seen. Here's the rub. No one can effectively analyze what's is going on in your case without actually being there. Maybe they are taking too much time maybe they aren't. Internet, video access, speedy information, causes everyone to be an expert before they ever set foot in the door. Train more analyze less. After some 15 years in one system, then you can start discarding the things that don't work.

    Can you guys expand on this and help me understand the over complicated moves and why you feel there is enough time in a real altercation to do them?
    Over complicated? Which moves? Time is subjective. Time slows down (sometimes) in real situations. Speeds up in others. the bottom line is Ninpo works in real altercations.

    Like I said, I enjoyed the class, Thats important. Its a stable school been here for more then a decade. Thats important.I just want to make sure that im getting quality MA instruction not Hippie BS that wont work. Lots of instructors of every kind fail. But there are lots of good instructors out there too.

    Here is the video they posted as there example of why its bad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6poI...layer_embedded It just seams that at certain points, things take to long. Why is it bad? Looks like Ninpo to me. Looks like a demonstration video with the purpose of marketing. Therefore, its a little fast. But both the demonstrator and Uke can handle the rate of speed they are training at. The use of the groin cup is odd. But I gather that allows them to make contact where they might not normally. But it doesn't look overly complicated. Not taking too much time.

    Ring fighting on the other hand, has time limits because it would otherwise take too much time. Referee's are there to break things up when things are taking too much time. Nothing real about that. Very few bouts are quick. The faster fights are more disappointing to the audience.


    Help me out guys. I just want to make sure that Im getting into a qualified and real ma that will work. Can't comment on the quality of your school or instructor. You haven't posted any information on that. Nor would I feel qualified to advise you if you did. I expect real punch's real kicks to deal with, not taps.. Do you want to break ribs and bust noses in training? Do you want your partner to do that to you? If so, there is no shortage of kind of facility. Do you want a cooperative training partner to help you learn? And are you getting that at your new place? If so, stay.
    Ninpo is real and it works regardless of whether practitioner A can make it work. (inside or outside of someone else's parameters or expectations)

    Just trying to be helpful...
    Last edited by Onibaba; 23rd October 2013 at 19:55.

  2. #17
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    Thank you ONI. Here is the link to the place ill be starting at. http://ftwaynemartialarts.com/instructors/ I linked to the instructors page.

    I agree that its not important what they think. I have already made up my mind to start. With regards to broken noses and contact. I don't want injuries, I just want some contact. Doesn't have to be injurious, but I need some contact to let me know is screwed up.

    am done letting others make my decision for me. Hence why im likely done on sherdog.

    Here Is a good question though for everyone. I was on google, and was looking for examples bujinkan ground fighting/survival and found a number of dojos saying they teach Suwari Newaza, then they use parenthesis and say its ground fighting. Can someone explain to me the differences between Suwari newaza and the Newaza that BJJ/Judo does? If I remember my searching correctly suwari newaza is merely seated/kneeling techniques and not in any way congruent to BJJ/Judo Newaza.

    Please educate me on the meaning and purpose behind the Suwari ne waza. In context of way back in history when the arts were in there heyday and how it relates to modern defensive application.

    Just based on my experiances isn't it a little misleading for these bbt dojo to say that they are teaching ground fighting, obviously trying to conjure up images of bjj. A smart marketing move I might add.
    Joshua W. Worman. My motto for losing weight. "Defeat is a lie, there is only adversity, from adversity I gain strength. From strength I gain power. From power I get Victory. Through victory my chains are broken."

  3. #18
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    Kframe

    My guess is that the "overly complex" part is a misunderstanding of what is going on.

    The last time I said something similar the teacher pointed out that he could "stop" the techiniques at any given point. The "5" sections he was showing us were so we could see what we "could" do. Not what we "had" to do.

    Interesting problem BTW--you are adament about leaving MMA because of the "egos" but you also (quite rightly) are concerned about what could be termed effectiveness. Leaving aside the issue of you--with just a little training are really in a postion to judge the techniques--Hey, sometimes it takes awhile with a new system. The choice you may have to make is:

    Is the "ego" stuff worth the techniques?

    Only you can say for sure--because you are the guy having to put up with it.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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    Cxt, I understand what your saying. I don't have much experience, so im just going to trust my instructors. As I mentioned im done with mma and the attendant ego and hatred of anything not considered part of the equation.

    Any advice on Koho kaiten? I am, as I noted a big guy and I keep getting stuck on my head. I end up looking like a big turtle on its back.. I could use some advice on getting this..

    The rolling and gymnastics are what worry me the most. I noticed this art has lots of gymnastics in it..
    Joshua W. Worman. My motto for losing weight. "Defeat is a lie, there is only adversity, from adversity I gain strength. From strength I gain power. From power I get Victory. Through victory my chains are broken."

  6. #20
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    I am an MMA Fighter as well. 6-2-0 with two belt titles. Ninjutsu is a valid art and actually incorporates a lot of the things we learn in jiu jitsu and judo. The balance (kamae) is crucial and really important in MMA as well.

    This article is one on Akban which is a Bujinkan school that integrates a lot of MMA in their system. http://www.shinobiexchange.com/fitne...akban-academy/

    There is also an article on Kamae and one on proper nutrition. The nutrition one is pretty much an exact model of what I do when I cut weight.

    Enjoy!

    -PinkShinobi

  7. #21
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    Hi Joshua

    I have had only a few classes of Bujinkan, but with Pedro Fleitas, who is very close to the actual Soke, and know a lot of people who like it and are very good I mean for self defence on the street. I think they are just demonstrating in the video, it wouldn't take that long on the street.

    I agree with Peter, that the most important to become really good is a nice place, nice peers to train with, so that you will always be eager to go to training.

    And I'm glad you found the good atmosphere in the BBT classes.

    And finally about your motto I understand you are talking about victory over yourself.

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  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkshinobi View Post
    I am an MMA Fighter as well. 6-2-0 with two belt titles. Ninjutsu is a valid art and actually incorporates a lot of the things we learn in jiu jitsu and judo. The balance (kamae) is crucial and really important in MMA as well.

    This article is one on Akban which is a Bujinkan school that integrates a lot of MMA in their system. http://www.shinobiexchange.com/fitne...akban-academy/

    There is also an article on Kamae and one on proper nutrition. The nutrition one is pretty much an exact model of what I do when I cut weight.

    Enjoy!

    -PinkShinobi
    PInkshinobi, how long have you been doing Ninjutsu? In your fights, what aspects of budo taijutsu did you use the most? Did you use the Uke's like Jodan and chudan?(which I understand function more like attacks then blocks, the foot work is the defense)

    How much ground grappling did you have to add into your training for your fights? Do you train in other stand up arts? If so how much does Budo taijutsu factor into your stand up??

    Thanks for taking time to respond to my thread.
    Joshua W. Worman. My motto for losing weight. "Defeat is a lie, there is only adversity, from adversity I gain strength. From strength I gain power. From power I get Victory. Through victory my chains are broken."

  10. #23
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    I used to be in the Bujinkan for about 20 years, left it due personal reasons few years ago and `ve been studying Ba gua now...
    I trained a bit in grappling, some MMA, some Kali (Dog Brothers), so I ll try to answer your question from my viewpoint.
    There are a lot of nice aspects within the Bujinkan but MOST dojo simply dont adress training against a resisting partner. I spent about ten years travelling reguraly to Japan to train with Hatsumi Sensei and the Shihan his students and at one pointed I was bothered why there wasnt any training with resistance or any Kumite/Sparring...I started with the an student of Doron Navon in the 80ies and we did lots and lots of sparring ( downside was that it immediatley looked like a sort of kick boxing-wrestling mix...)
    Yossi Sheriff from AKBAN is keeping up this tradition ( In the 90ies I ran a Bujinkan dojo with one of Yossis blackbelts, so I am familiar with the curriculum). Well back to Japan; when I asked the various teachers what happened to sparring they told me that when the Bujinkan became more popular Hatsumi Sensei forbid sparring....dunno if its true but this is what I got from at least three different teachers...
    I have a close friend who is still a member of the Buijinkan even he doesnt teach actively anymore and he is a gifted MMA practitioner; being in Japan he would train in Bujinkan in the evening, spending his daytime in Sakuraba Gym...what I learned from him is that applying the Bujinkan principles in combination with the methodology of MMA is a nice thing.....Maybe I am wrong but from your lines I feel that you maybe should train in both ( if money and time allow it) and see what happens...
    Good luck with your training !
    Best

    Stefan Marcec
    Gao Ba gua (Hung I Mien Line)
    Stefan Marcec
    Zurich, Switzerland

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  12. #24
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    Default realistic self defense

    I think BBT or any other martial art clip on youtube showing combinations always seem to work in a way. However applying in a situation where someone has to defend him or herself from a real attack outside the gym or dojo is just another story.

    I know many martial artists or budoka's train for different reasons, or a combination of reasons. That is why communicating about martial arts is always difficult because the focus and one understanding of the different mindsets are always from personal experience or beliefs.

    I think for most arts as well as the japanese sword arts that a false impression is given that the essence of the art is contained in form, technique and the mental approach that one suppose to develop such as fighting spirit etc etc.

    If you look very practically towards the matter one can say that within it's own template the style always work. For everything is an answer. If attacker moves like this then the defender can move like that. Let's not draw the line from the gym to outside the gym but let's just focus on the protected environment itself. For example, you can really develop skills in training with a boxing bag, a partner that responds accordingly in practising a technique, building stamina through condition training etc. And it will all help in sparring. But as many of you know kicking perfectly hitting a bag, or rehearsing your techniques again and again through kata or partner training does not necesserily makes you respond well in a more free session. This looks like a simple example but i am pretty sure if you are sincere in your training you recognize the pitfalls when it comes to a certain testing of your skills.

    As for the sword related to tameshigiri. Invent moving targets and lets see if you can cut with the same precision and speed. If not you are sure you are practising something abstract though you may feel content with your sword knowledge or handling. Of course tameshigiri is a good tool to test cutting ability but I just take this example to show its problem with 'realism' in a micro cosmos.

    So the first part of my answer would be. it is not in the technical approach where the answer to realistic self defense lies. If people would recognize this fact there would be no clips around proving one style over another. Or at least not giving the value to it that it is given sometimes to it by the styles themselves. Thinking right now of all the wing chun vs clips on youtube. I did myself some wing chun so i watched it lol. On this subject I saw some interesting clip of the dog brothers proving all these fancy disarm techniques etc really dont work if someone with little knowledge but with an enormous rage tries to overpower you with a knife. There are no knife fights except in movies. Reality on the street is more likely you get stabbed and that's it. So its the same with the combination of the words realistic and selfdefence. It is as abstract as the technical promo mumbo jumbo clips from BBT or any other style.

    People can be perfect in their movements but once challenged other elements kick in. Many would disagree with me saying it depends on the person and not about the style. Well its true it always depends on the person. But more important is the context this person lives his live. If you really live in a dangerous country I think martial arts are not on your mind. However if you live in a safer place but you feel not so safe or secure, then BBT might be something good. I think trained properly indeed martial arts can be good for your body and spirit.
    But to assume we are masters of technique and therefore lethal with sword or fists is too far fetched. The problem is that self defence is promoted by many schools. But if we do a test how many in this forum have been assaulted, I think the numbers are quite low.

    The second thing i have to say as answer is that if you feel comfortable with yourself, have a good self esteem then it works better for you as realistic self defense then trying to elbow your opponent to the ground. Lucky sofar this counted for me when the few times I was in danger kept my head cool and used my relaxed voice. Yes and just few times i jumped between people and got some kicks or punches but when your adreline is working you dont feel anything. And i guess its something inside you and there are better ways to develop a clear mind in these situations then to know how to kill someone through martial arts training. Its so true that to avoid a fight is to win a fight.

    The problem with many martial artists is i think that when they began or maybe even now have no good self esteem. Think about it. We need a father figure as sensei or trainer?! And if the art is exotic it even adds up more to our mystical aura of masters of live and death.
    Before we know it we not only polish our shinkens but our ego's as well. And for some it seems a matter of importance to have trained with this person and that person in that country cause then good technique is inherited??? lol. Some are very proud of their intellectual or spiritual progression as well. But all these things just come and go. Its all ego, as i am pretty aware i suffer from it too now and then ^^. Also all your reflections on martial arts will certainly change if you are open minded enough. For those who are not then martial arts will turn into religious devotism which in my opinion, even how celebrated you are as martial artist is a trap.

    If you really really want to train self defense in your martial arts then the foundation should not be sought in the curriculum of one school or in many but should be searched for in your development as a the human being you are and how well you communicate with others and how you live your life in your environment. Since that is very personal of course I wish you the best.

    And by the way I like how BBT practisioners move. Also in relation the the development of tactics in kumitachi I check now and then some good clips or read books and get inspired. Some postures of BBT cause of their seemlingsly ankward kamae can work out quite well as I experienced in my iaido environment. So you see i am limited too. Maybe that is why not many reply, realizing their own limitations. But the limitations or borders is what makes the problem in relation to one training complete or at least a starting point for martial and personal development that is if you can relativate your own beliefs and not turn into a religious follower of a ryu or style stopping creativity completely.
    Last edited by AtlanticDrive; 26th December 2013 at 06:35.

  13. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtlanticDrive View Post



    The second thing i have to say as answer is that if you feel comfortable with yourself, have a good self esteem then it works better for you as realistic self defense then trying to elbow your opponent to the ground. Lucky sofar this counted for me when the few times I was in danger kept my head cool and used my relaxed voice.

    If you really really want to train self defense in your martial arts then the foundation should not be sought in the curriculum of one school or in many but should be searched for in your development as a the human being you are and how well you communicate with others and how you live your life in your environment.
    I agree with these phrases of Jeroen, wherever you will train Joshua, the most important is to train to react calm no matter what happens, maintain a serene gaze, a strong posture, a body expression that will tell everybody that you are confident to handle any situation. We train it in our aikido dojo with different exercises, not only the normal aikido techniques.

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    I have only recently started bunjinkan and something just clicked. If you join to loose weight, you won't. The moves you find overly complicated are not. They flow. This will come in time as your body learns. You will eventually not have to think about movement it will happen. I used to be WTF but had to stop because of hip issues and now wish I had started with bunjinkan. I love the history that's comes with it and the calmness that is encouraged within training. Anyway, I feel I am rambeling on a bit. I think one of your original worries/concerns was if bunjinkan was a good step because of its complicated movements? Stick with it. You will not regret it.

    Glenn whitney

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    I know this is a WAY late post, however, I just want to say that I was a martial artist before I was a wrestler in high school in the 80's. I adapted well to wrestling, however, I did get penalized or disqualified several times for using "illegal" moves. these are the moves that were practiced over and over again in slow motion. In a full speed grappling situation such as wrestling, they presented and it just happened. I am embarrassed to say I actually struck several opponents just due to reflex. So there is a reason for it. If you train, your body will react, regardless of the speed.

    Scott Hubbell
    Last edited by shubbel; 16th June 2015 at 03:35. Reason: spelling

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