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Thread: From mma to Bujinkan...

  1. #1
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    Default From mma to Bujinkan...

    I have a thread on this on Martial talk, but I wanted to find a new forum to get some other thoughts. I know that I need to ask the instructor but I cant do that right now.

    FYI im 5'8 330, 32yrs old.

    I spent the last 1.5 years in mma to loose weight. Its working. I have lost 100lbs but I have 100 more to go. Problem is I have been to more then 2 mma gyms. MMA gyms are not stable here, they keep going out of business. That and im tired of the egos and need for dominance.

    Well I took a BBT class, and as stated in my mt thread I enjoyed it and I felt I got something out of it.

    Now my mates on sherdog are playing to my MMA training and trying to talk me out of it. Using convincing arguments, with videos. The one thing I take away from them is that the techniques are not realistic.

    I watched there videos and I have no problems with the actual defenses vs various strikes, its what happens after words. Its the complicated repeat armlocking and movem this way and then back that way then back this way then lets throw them and kill them. I guess ill boil it down. It seams that they are using to much time from the end of the deflections of the incoming strikes, to the actual take down and defeat. TO much time spent moving various body parts. Now it may have been that video, and others I have seen.

    Can you guys expand on this and help me understand the over complicated moves and why you feel there is enough time in a real altercation to do them?

    Like I said, I enjoyed the class, Its a stable school been here for more then a decade. I just want to make sure that im getting quality MA instruction not Hippie BS that wont work.

    Here is the video they posted as there example of why its bad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6poI...layer_embedded It just seams that at certain points, things take to long.

    Help me out guys. I just want to make sure that Im getting into a qualified and real ma that will work. I expect real punch's real kicks to deal with, not taps..

  2. #2
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    Hmm so many views and no replies.

    Didn't think my post was a bad one. I just wanted information on why some techniques looked like they took to long to do.

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    Things will sometimes take 'too long' to do. Ever seen an ADCC comp? all that shifting and push/pull before anyone gets a sub? They're called setups.
    One thing that's missing in that video is the response of the other guy to the setup. That's why it seems too long, the guy's just standing there. Makes for two problems:

    1. Does not give accurate feedback if the setup worked/failed.
    2. Gives one a false sense of security (not getting attacked back while doing the technique)

    Everyone can do a technique. Hyper-extend the elbow it's an armbar already. HOW YOU GET THERE SAFELY, EFFICIENTLY AND EFFECTIVELY is the question. That's why MMA is good at what it does; chuck out the unusable ones, you don't have time to spend acquiring those of no value to your repertoire. Sadly BBT is the opposite, even at the Hombu itself. Nearly no feedback or only token resistance to the setup.

    In Arnis they have Largo(long range) and Corto (close range). Majority of the fancy stuff we see is the corto cuts and slashes, but how to get to that point where you can do that safely is the province of largo. BBT doesn't have that much trained to a point where they can shut down the opponents' responses effectively to act out their own technique on opponents actively doing things to prevent them.

    That's why those guys at sherdog means well. Do MMA. But do not be restricted to their framework(cage fighting). If you need help mixing MMA and traditional arts, ask David Dow aka shinbushi (BBT/Muay thai) or Tim Cartmell (Chinese Martial arts/BJJ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kframe View Post
    Hmm so many views and no replies.

    Didn't think my post was a bad one. I just wanted information on why some techniques looked like they took to long to do.
    Not at all. To me, your post is very relevant to E-Budo but don't look too much at the view counter. It includes a bunch of search engine robots and such

    With regards to your original question, I have nothing to say really since I don't know much about Bujinkan
    Peter Thorvald
    Shorinji Kempo
    Sweden

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    Thank you for the kind words spyder. Lockfield im not interested in MMA any more. I can not stand the hate, the ego, the need to dominate.

    Part of the reason im very interested in the bbt school. It was a nice place. Its just because of my mma, that I still look for practical things in martial arts.
    Joshua W. Worman. My motto for losing weight. "Defeat is a lie, there is only adversity, from adversity I gain strength. From strength I gain power. From power I get Victory. Through victory my chains are broken."

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    Sorry to be irritating Joshua, but "loosing weight" should be spelled "losing". I know this isn't a spelling, grammar and punctuation forum, but it is somewhere where we come to share and learn from each other, so I hope you can see I have your best interests at heart. Your signature motto has a really posiitve attitude and could be an inspiration to others, but the mis-spelling detracts from that.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  7. #7
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    So you picked a grammer error in my sig to talk about instead of my questions?
    Joshua W. Worman. My motto for losing weight. "Defeat is a lie, there is only adversity, from adversity I gain strength. From strength I gain power. From power I get Victory. Through victory my chains are broken."

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    Well, I liked the question, but have nothing to contribute to that. Sorry, but I know enough to know that I don't know enough to offer an opinion. But I like the topic and will continue to read it. Perhaps by adding to it I can help it to register on the radar and those with worthy comments will see it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, although I am aware that it often looks that way . I hope you can get some better answers in due course.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    I just wanted to add one small thing. Whatever need you may have for learning more or less realistic self defense, I would say that finding a nice and enjoyable place to train is more important since it will keep you training. If you train somewhere you don't really like just for the awesome self defence techniques, odds are you'll quit pretty soon anyway.

    So, my somewhat camouflaged point is; find a place where you enjoy training and take it from there. In my very limited experience, it is not always the art in itself that limits practical application of self defence techniques but rather how you train the art. I think there are many arts that can train you in effective self defence so long as you train in a realistic way (i.e. aliveness, focus, application of force etc.).

    Just my 2 cents. Oh, and BTW, Shorinji Kempo is awesome
    Peter Thorvald
    Shorinji Kempo
    Sweden

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    Im sorry for my Terse response. I was in a bad mood. I apologize for my attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    Well, I liked the question, but have nothing to contribute to that. Sorry, but I know enough to know that I don't know enough to offer an opinion. But I like the topic and will continue to read it. Perhaps by adding to it I can help it to register on the radar and those with worthy comments will see it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, although I am aware that it often looks that way . I hope you can get some better answers in due course.
    Joshua W. Worman. My motto for losing weight. "Defeat is a lie, there is only adversity, from adversity I gain strength. From strength I gain power. From power I get Victory. Through victory my chains are broken."

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    No worries.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Your complaint is unclear - you find the techniques in Bujinkan overly complex, or the ones your buddies train in? Frankly I don't know much about Bujinkan so I can't comment. However if you want simple, effective technique you might consider taking up judo - it lines up a lot with what you have already learned, it is cheap and readily available.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Im not complaining. Did you watch the video I posted? I was talking about the sequences when he blocks a few shots(im ok with that) then proceeds to catch the arm, twist it in a few different directions then displace him. I was hoping someone could walk me through how moves like that work under a adrenal response.

    Honestly I don't really care what the guys on Sherdog think. I have already signed up for BBT classes and am awaiting my Uniform. I had fun in my class and that Is all that matters.

    Edit to add. Using my mma experience I was able to see most of what they were trying to teach me in class. The good atmosphere and solid martial concepts that I encountered in that dojo were what sold me. I was more curious about the higher level stuff and the stuff in that video.
    Joshua W. Worman. My motto for losing weight. "Defeat is a lie, there is only adversity, from adversity I gain strength. From strength I gain power. From power I get Victory. Through victory my chains are broken."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kframe View Post
    Honestly I don't really care what the guys on Sherdog think. I have already signed up for BBT classes and am awaiting my Uniform. I had fun in my class and that Is all that matters.
    Good for you!
    Peter Thorvald
    Shorinji Kempo
    Sweden

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    Joshua,
    While I have not trained in the Bujinkan so I cannot comment specifically on the techniques I have been around long enough to know that a video is not necessarily a good way to judge anything.
    I can find several videos that would prove my point of view if I wanted to prove or disprove the validity of an art.

    For instance, for me the technique demonstrated here looks complicated and impractical:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZKl__zFPYM

    While the techniques in this video appear, to me, to be straight forward and effective:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANnD7k87klw

    "I was hoping someone could walk me through how moves like that work under a adrenal response"
    The same way any move will work, training, training, training.
    Under pressure your body will respond the way you train it.
    Take the act of changing a magazine for a firearm.
    It takes coordination to perform it efficiently and quickly, and if you have to do this in real life well...
    chances are your adrenaline will be slightly elevated.
    But if you train this action, or any other action, in the proper mindset your body will know what to do, sometimes before you will.
    Joe Stitz

    "Black belt and white belt are the same, white belt is the beginning of technique. Black belt is the beginning of understanding. Both are beginner belts."
    - Doug Perry -Hanshi, KuDan -Shorin Ryu ShorinKan

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