Timing in Sankaku nuki

[JL.]

Gassho!

I teach Sankaku nuki something like this: The attack is the same as for Kiri kaeshi nuki (Ude ushiro neji age), but instead of stepping forwards and outside to go into Kagite shuho we step backwards and sideways to bring our body into the way of the attack and thus be able to go into Sankaku shuho. The reason is that the reaction was too late for the first version.
My problem with this is that this is really more of a split-second difference, because once the attack advances behind our body it's too late for the second version as well. And since it's a step in pretty much the opposite direction than originally intended, it seems rather unrealistic to get this done in time.
My question now is: Is there an explanation or solution for this problem or are there completely different versions or explanations that avoid it?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Normally we do sankanunuki when the defender is in jun gedan gamae. So the attack is to the front hand.

Kirikaeshinuki is when the defender is in gyaku gedan gamae and the attack is to the rear hand.

These are the basic versions for me.

[Rob Gassin]

With sankaku nuki, we tend to move forward bringing the waist towards the grabbed hand and then dropping the elbow, once in kagite. See link below.

http://kenseikai.world.coocan.jp/gihou/waza-ef.htm

[Panu Suominen]

I think it never should be about what the we do, but what the uke does and situation mandates. Thus one can never actually choose what to do. But that is another topic.

I am not sure this helps, but here it goes...

IMHO the difference between kiri kaeshi nuki and sankaku nuki seems to be whether one is able to get kagite shuho(?) or not. Kagite shuho (in this grab) basically allows tori to move outside of uke and then different arrays of techniques can be used. Sankaku nuki seems to be for the situation when moving outside is not possible or did not succeed. This does not have to be just because of timing. It just might be impossible due differences in strength, space between uke and tori etc.

Thus when training sankaku nuki one has to create situation where getting to the outside is not a possibility. There are probably many ways for this. Some of them coming to mind without actual person to test with are grabbing front hand (like Kari sensei said) or doing ude ushiro neji age more to the side first (this makes it hard to get elbow down as required for kiri kaeshi nuki).

I also like to strike the uke with shoulder (kata atari?) when doing sankaku nuki so stepping inwards in the technique seems to be the way for me.

As a follow up. Is the kagite in kiri kaeshi nuki kagite shuho or choji shuho? Because in kagite shuho on other techniques one kinda presses the hand towards one's own body. If I am not mistaken due the lack of immediately available training partner, in kiri kaeshi nuki one kinda turns hand outwards instead of pressing them inwards...

[JL.]

Gassho!

Hm, interesting: Sankaku nuki from gedan gamae; moving the hip forward, not sideways. Some of this I've tried myself, and it certainly fits in with what I know of the hokei. Not necessarily helping me with the timing problem, though, albeit I can understand how it's easier to move the hip towards the wrist from gedan gamae instead of gyaku gedan gamae.
Incidentally the (new) kamokuhyo states gedan gamae (not gyaku) for both(!) techniques and kagite shuho for Kiri kaeshi nuki (not sure what choji shuho is).
Beyond that I agree with most of what Panu-sempai wrote, especially the parts about reacting to different forms of attack from kosha and the ways of training that.
Thanks for all the answers so far!

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[stevenm]

I think it never should be about what the we do, but what the uke does and situation mandates. Thus one can never actually choose what to do. But that is another topic.

I am not sure this helps, but here it goes...

IMHO the difference between kiri kaeshi nuki and sankaku nuki seems to be whether one is able to get kagite shuho(?) or not. Kagite shuho (in this grab) basically allows tori to move outside of uke and then different arrays of techniques can be used. Sankaku nuki seems to be for the situation when moving outside is not possible or did not succeed. This does not have to be just because of timing. It just might be impossible due differences in strength, space between uke and tori etc.

Thus when training sankaku nuki one has to create situation where getting to the outside is not a possibility. There are probably many ways for this. Some of them coming to mind without actual person to test with are grabbing front hand (like Kari sensei said) or doing ude ushiro neji age more to the side first (this makes it hard to get elbow down as required for kiri kaeshi nuki).

I also like to strike the uke with shoulder (kata atari?) when doing sankaku nuki so stepping inwards in the technique seems to be the way for me.

As a follow up. Is the kagite in kiri kaeshi nuki kagite shuho or choji shuho? Because in kagite shuho on other techniques one kinda presses the hand towards one's own body. If I am not mistaken due the lack of immediately available training partner, in kiri kaeshi nuki one kinda turns hand outwards instead of pressing them inwards...

The Shorinji Kempo Technical Curriculum DVD offers this explanation.

"The attacker tries to twist your arm up behind your back. If you can't do Kagite Shuho in time. Do Sankaku Shuho".

[stevenm]

As a follow up. Is the kagite in kiri kaeshi nuki kagite shuho or choji shuho? Because in kagite shuho on other techniques one kinda presses the hand towards one's own body. If I am not mistaken due the lack of immediately available training partner, in kiri kaeshi nuki one kinda turns hand outwards instead of pressing them inwards...

PS The defender should move in sashikae irimi and into kagite shuho.

[Gary Dolce]

When the attacker is trying to do hamma nage or ude ushiro neji age, I always first move into sankaku shuho. From there, I can decide whether to switch my stance and do kirikaeshi nuki or just do sankaku nuki. Always going to sankaku shuho resolves the problem Jan describes in his original post. You don't have to hold the sankaku shuho for more than a very brief instant - just long enough to prevent the arm from getting pushed away from the body. If doing kirikaeshi nuki, I switch stance into kagite the moment I have stabilized the arm with sankaku shuho.

[JL.]

Gassho!

Always going to sankaku shuho resolves the problem Jan describes in his original post. You don't have to hold the sankaku shuho for more than a very brief instant - just long enough to prevent the arm from getting pushed away from the body. If doing kirikaeshi nuki, I switch stance into kagite the moment I have stabilized the arm with sankaku shuho.

That's an interesting approach! Only disadvantage I see is that it leads to more of a force-struggle than going directly into Kagite shuho (if possible), because the latter can be pretty effortless with the right timing and Umpo ho.
Still, interesting thought, thanks!

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Gary Dolce]

Gassho Jan,

No force struggle is necessary - with practice, sankaku shuho becomes a natural response to the arm being pushed out. Whether you switch to kagite, or just do sankaku nuki depends on how much force the attacker is applying, and how easily you can move with the attacker to get to kagite. Play with it a bit, working toward the point where you don't stop at sankaku shuho but either immediately do sankaku nuki or immediately switch to kagite (which of course you also shouldn't stop at). The shuho should be very dynamic, not a static position.

Gary

[Steve Malton]

Thus when training sankaku nuki one has to create situation where getting to the outside is not a possibility. There are probably many ways for this. Some of them coming to mind without actual person to test with are grabbing front hand (like Kari sensei said) or doing ude ushiro neji age more to the side first (this makes it hard to get elbow down as required for kiri kaeshi nuki).

Diving in on this one as I've been trying to teach it this week. Thinking about the progressions in other juho techniques, it seems logical to me that we would use sankaku nuki because the attacker has does something to prevent kiri kaeshi nuki (just like we do maki nuki when yori nuki isn't possible). The simplest thing I've found that causes this is if the attacker attempts to twist the arm as well as swing it, driving the thumb edge back and the little-finger edge forward (relative to the rest of the hand) - in fact, the same type of twist as maki nuki. This stops the defender from getting the elbow down, so kiri kaeshi nuki is not possible.

As an addendum, there's been some mention of moving forward or back for the different techniques. I like to move to wherever the attacker wanted to swing the hand, whilst simultaneously making kagite; this means I don't have to fight for position, and the attacker is generally weak in the direction of the kagite movement as it is at right angles to the swing/grab. It also means I'm in a nice position for sankaku shuho should the need arise