Budoshin Jiu Jitsu?

[Scanderson]

Dear learned participants:

First, let me thank you all for your great contributions in helping to root out frauds. I was wondering if any of you could shed light on the following:

http://www.budoshin.com/

I want to be careful here, and not be a "Cotton Mather", but I am leary of this organization - to many things raise flags, based on what I have learned here and from other sites and research. One of its branches is teaching at the YMCA in my county (which is usually a good sign) but I have doubts based on what I read at the yudanshakai site listed above. Any comments on this organization (well thought- no baseless slams, please) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance - I have loved reading the posts of this forum.

Regards.

Stephen C. Anderson

[Brian Griffin]

I've always found George to be honorable, sincere, and surprisingly modest. He's candid about his own background, and about what he does and does not know. There's never been anything "cult-like" about him or his people. I've sat in on some of their rank exams, and found them to be thorough, and strict without being abusive. I've never heard any accusation of their ranks being sold.

George is involved in two organizations:

AJA -- (American Jujitsu Ass'n) is an umbrella org. composed of members and clubs from several different jujutsu styles.

Budoshin Yudanshakai -- "Budoshin" is the name George has given to the style he practices & teaches. This is an org. of people who've achieved black belt in this style.

Where, exactly, did you see signs of fraud?

[MarkF]

Red flags went up when I saw his site, as well. I had heard of Kirby, but that was around 1970. I also knew one of his teachers Jack (Zanzo Zeki) Haywood, a hapa who taught what he called jiu-jitsu and was really exactly that--Kodokan Jiu jitsu. He simply taught the waza in a different order, and excluding some things, such as ukemi waza, and very little of the class was devoted to nagewaza, although he taught this in a non-traditional manner, always as kata. There was no randori at that school. George Kirby also is a teacher at my former high school, and I've been communicating with him occasionally.

I wouldn't go so far as to call what he does fraud, but grading of kyudan in his fifties, is well, quite liberal. There are also some questionable international members of the AJA, one in Serbia, who wrote me some rather racially tinged and harried email.

Red flag # one. He does do video "teaching" and "testing." No matter how it is explained, there are always going to be questions. Red Flag #two. He promotes by video, except until sankyu, he accepts whatever kyu grade you claim, one reason being that no one is going to ask for proof until sankyu (I found that a strange answer but it is probably true, with the exception of my sensei, who checked my background at that grade).

He does have an overwhelming number of black belt students. His Teacher, Jack Zeki also had an inordinate number of black belt, well, *thugs* is probably the better term for it, but that is just my opinion. Jack (Zeki) Haywood held sandan in kodokan judo and was a member of the Nanka Yudanshakai of So. California, but claimed godan, within the first week I was at that dojo. When that year was up, and I left, Zeki had self-promoted himself to hachidan, the grade with which he passed away in 1998 from the effects of heavy smoking. On the AJA site, it says Jack had actually been kyudan hanshi, or shihan, I'm not sure at the moment (he did, toward the end of his life attain yondan in Kodokan judo.

These were my "flags" and you can do what you like, but if you do write to him, be prepared to be put on his mailing lists and to get sales pitches for videos and books from time to time. As to his talent, I have no idea, but to his claims, I think you have every right to question it, in email.

Mark

[MarkF]

BTW: I just read the version of Zeki's career, and he did claim to have studied directly under Prof. Kano of the Kodokan. Even if he did study at the Kodokan, he would have been awfully young to have studied "directly under" Kano, as by that time, Kano spent most of his time out of the country, and was rarely doing anything but demonstrations, give talks, etc., as there were too many schools of Kodokan Judo by that time. Kano had pretty much quit the physical aspect of judo and retired from that in his late twenties, although he would give demonstrations of some of his inventions such as the ju no kata.

Kano claimed no grade in judo.

[Scanderson]

For me, and based on what I have learned at this forum and elsewhere, it is the video examinations that give rise for concern on my part. MarkF seems to concur and also has included further observations to reinforce my concerns.

However, these are just impressions and observations and should be considered as such.

[Brian Griffin]

It would appear that Mr. Feigenbaum's concerns are primarily centered on the late Jack Seki. Those concerns are based on his experiences w/ Mr. Seki some decades ago.
While Seki was one of George's teachers, he had nothing to do with the AJA or Budoshin groups under discussion. It's unfair to tar them with the same brush.

We all know people we believe to be over-ranked. To my knowledge, however, George has never promoted himself, or purchased a rank. His grades have been awarded by the AJA board that handles all such promotions in their organization. You are free to disagree with their standards, but it's not fraudulent.

That just leaves the video testing business, which seems to be a very recent innovation. It remains to be seen if the experiment will be successful. They are not the first to try it, and the concept is not fraudulent per se. It's true that some groups have used it as a thinly-disguised method of selling ranks in the past. Based on my experiences with the AJA/Budoshin/Kirby, I would be very surprised if they did something that unethical.

Does anyone have any actual knowledge of the standards and procedures used in their video testing? How many ranks have been awarded this way, and at what level?

I suspect you'll find most ranks are awarded in the traditional manner, and that video tests have been relatively low ranks, awarded to geographically-isolated students.

By all means contact them, and ask the questions. Then you'll know.

[Kokorou]

Right on...

I've been studying Budoshin for a while (since I was eight-ish). I will tell you that Professor Kirby is the most up-front, personable and candid instructor I have ever met. I just finished a seminar with him this past weekend.

Unlike some instructors I have heard of, Professor Kirby isn't out for the money; he's in it for the love of the art.

There are no pretenses, and I really like that about Budoshin.

< / end-soap-box >



- Alainna

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by Kokorou
Right on...

I've been studying Budoshin for a while (since I was eight-ish). I will tell you that Professor Kirby is the most up-front, personable and candid instructor I have ever met. I just finished a seminar with him this past weekend.

Unlike some instructors I have heard of, Professor Kirby isn't out for the money; he's in it for the love of the art.

There are no pretenses, and I really like that about Budoshin.

< / end-soap-box >



- Alainna

That's all well and good.

But you've still got to sign all your posts with your full name.

Just like the rules of this forum tell you to.

[pgsmith]

From a brief look through their web site (which was extremely hard on the eyes by the way!) I couldn't see any sign of fraud. While I have no idea what their technique is like, and some may not approve of their methods, they don't seem to be advertising themselves as anything other than what they are. That seems to me to be the sign of fraud. If they were promoting themselves as the recipients of some ancient Japanese secret ryu, then it would qualify as fraud. They seem fairly up-front about where their techniques came from, and what they are or are not.

People can agree or disagree on their methods, and debate whether they are effective or not. Effectivity has nothing to do with fraud though. I've seen legitimately ranked instructors that couldn't teach their students how to properly turn around. That didn't make them frauds either, just ineffective. I'm not saying that this particular group is ineffective. I don't know anyone that studies with them so I've no idea. Don't really care either. I'm just saying that since they don't claim to be something they're not, I don't see how anyone could call them fraudulent. They do need to make their web site easier on the eyes though!

My two cents, for the very little they are worth.

Cheers,

[Kokorou]

Originally posted by larsen_huw

But you've still got to sign all your posts with your full name.

Just like the rules of this forum tell you to.

I'm sorry if I'm a little apprehensive about putting my full name out into a public forum. But for your 24/7 entertainment, here it is.


- Alainna Wonders

[Kokorou]

I actually can't believe you posted to a string just to say that.

- Alainna Wonders

[SLeclair]

Believe it. The rules say to post your full name with every message. The rules are enforced. If you keep doing it, moderators will delete your messages.

If you don't sign your full name, expect someone to step up and tell you or to receive a warning from a moderator. That's just the way things are around here. Keeps it (hopefully) more honest.

----
Sebastien Leclair

[rinpoche]

I just want to say that from my limited experience George Kirby is an extremely upfront and honest individual.

I know of a jujutsuka who wanted his rank recognized by Mr. Kirby's organization (not to buy a rank - merely to get recognized) and the organization wanted copies of certificates and references and a list of the requirements for teh jujutsuka to get to that grade.

It seemed to me to be about as thorough as one could get just to get listed in an organization.

I don't know how the video testing thing goes. I do own a couple of Mr. Kirby's videos (I am a MA video junkie). While they aren't spectacular they do seem to represent a genuine core jujutsu curriculum. Assuming that someone would have to demonstrate some proficiency in the waza on the tapes to get ranked, I guess they would have to have some skill in jujutsu.

I don't sense any kind of fraud whatsoever from Mr. Kirby. I don't know anything about his teacher or students. His teacher could have been a cannibal for all that matters - it should not reflect on his character.

[MarkF]

Why did he need or want his rank (grade) recognized in the first place? Weren't his own teachers good enough? If he had the certificates and recommendations from others, isn't that sufficient?

I actually can't believe you posted to a string just to say that.

- Alainna Wonders

Yes, I know what you mean Alainna. Stupid to post just to tell someone to sign their full, true name, isn't it? If you wanted to participate in something like, say, a dojo, a first name is good enough, right?

You evidently didn't read what you agreed to when you signed on. Please do so, then go to the bottom of any page on E-budo, and you will find four simple rules here. The first one is:

Please sign with your full name.

It is simple, really. A full name is your first name and your last name, or a first initial and your last name. There are ways to do this automatically, but I think you can find your way around.

There will be no further warning. If you fail to sign, expect your posts to be edited, deleted with a warning, deleted without one, or your membership terminated.


Mark

[MarkF]

Say, isn't that George Parulski in that picture?




Mark