Budoshin Jiu Jitsu?

[MarkF]

Hi, Rick,

The proof of the pudding is in the taste. Try being on the recieving end of a yubi Nage on concrete.

Do you mean kubinage? Otherwise, I am not familiar with the term.

Well, there are a lot of proclaimed "masters" in the world today and one more is not going to change things or shake the world much.

His methods of teaching are familiar because he is a public high school teacher and some of that is used, no doubt, but it is not the fact that people make videos, self-promote, or anything like that, as long as he is upfront and honest about what he offers a student in video training/testing. If you feel comfortable with that then there is nothing wrong with it.

Video demonstration and how-tos were around a lot longer than tape. I have some on old 8mm film and even predates super8s. You are close to my age so you may have some of those, too.

Making and distributing videos is also fine. I do not think I said there was anything wrong with that, but no matter how much you package, maintain the integrity of a video tape teaching or testing, that is not going to teach anyone much without training with a physically present instructor. 2D video does not equal in person three dimension training nor is it possible to see, feel, breathe, center, or learn anything else you can only get with a physical entity. I think you missed my point. I did not say that video, film, books, or whatever medium cannot serve a purpose, I am saying that it is virtually (no pun intended) impossible to get anymore from watching a video or reading a book to grade or teach anyone. Tools? Certainly. Beneficial? Absolutely. Teach long distance by audio/video? Grade a person long distance? I apologize profusely for disagreeing, but no matter what, you know as well as I do that there are some things that cannot be covered by audio/video. Some are better than others at grasping things from a page from a book than others, but there is no substitute for the real thing. If someone sells the idea that one can learn as well or grade by video and it is equal to being there is plainly misdirected and/or misdirecting others.

That said, George isn't a bad guy. I have a good friend (friends, actually) who make me cringe at the salesmanship at a seminar and he knows it. If you believe you got your money's worth, more power to you, but there is no way to convince me that I can learn anything, martially speaking, from that kind of media. You may come up with ideas you work out with the person who filmed or wrote it, but by itself, it would be worthless without that. It is difficult enough to write a true, factual history of anything, let-alone teach something for future use, but anything is possible.

As I said, if you are happy, then certainly I wouldn't think of criticizing what you are doing.


Best of luck,


Mark

[MarkF]

Hi, Colin,

This may or may not help, but George Kirby is a teacher at my oh so very old high school Alma Mater in Van Nuys, Ca., so perhaps his academic letters are such that it is a legal use, but I am not sure. It just now came to me

Mark

PS: When I wrote the above answer to Rick Torres' comments, I hadn't noted that Mr. Kirby had replied. I recalled him signing on a couple of years ago, so I was hoping he would respond soon. Thanks, George. BTW: Yes, Brian Griffin is a fairly regular poster on e-budo, usually in the Koryu jujutsu forum and the Judo forum, pretty much everyone at one time or another. He has buried me (and dug me out) with so much pretty much from all sides and he has my respect for so many things and is a judo instructor I would have no problem in recommending a student who is in his area of California.

[Jitsumania]

First point for clarification: The term Kubinage is designated to identify a neck throw. The term Yubinage is designated to identify a finger throw.
On to other points:
As a practicing Licensed Profesional Counselor I have many hours of Psychology undergraduate and graduate training under the belt and have studied extensively how the brain works and how we learn developmentally. The process of learning requires different dynamics to occur for the learning to be effective and lasting. Here are a few:
1 Visual Input- one must first observe and then attempt to mimic. This is done by watching a particular behavior and then attempting to replicate it (ie. Babies watching parents and copying the behavior they see, such as smiling) The more replication is done sucessfully the greater the likelyhood of the behavior being repeated.
2. After visual input is recieved the mimiced behavior is first attempted by the utilization of gross motor movement (learning to crawl before you walk, learning to walk before you run), then fine motor movement comes into play. examples of this in martial arts can be seen through various ways but let us use a Judo example. You must first learn the concept of Tai sabaki and ukemi (gross motor movement)before judo throws should be attempted as these require a bit more refined placement of hands, fingers, feet, different methods of grabbing, pulling,etc(finer motor movement)
The video medium gives an excellent starting point for these dynamics to occur. It offers the opportunity for the student to get a grasp on the gross motor movements needed for the technique. This is subsequently followed up by more intensive review of the video to examine the finer points of the technique so that refinement can occur. Refinement also occurs by providing video feedback to the Sensei so that he may examine and scrutinize the performance level of the techniques and provide feedback for even greater refinement(which Prof. Kirby does gladly).
3. Kinesthetics are also important to learning. Many people learn by touch (ie.the blind). The feedback that partners give themselves during actual hands on training is also very important. If the technique is done incorrectly then it will be ineffective and the uke will provide feedback to that effect to the Tori, which also helps to refine what is being learned.
The concept of having a live QUALIFIED Instructor and its merits are not up for debate by me. I am a strong believer in Instructor supervised hands on training, but what if it is not available, are we relegated to not even trying if there is a resouce available.
For many years I had a deep love for Aikido but was never in a geographical area where I had access to a qualified Instructor. I taught myself various techniques via video and books. Now that I do have an Aikido Sensei that I train with regularly I see the value of all my video training. My Sensei George Garcia, Sandan(Shudokan Aikido) was impressed with the knowledge I had gained on my own and taught my students in study group. He is no slouch. He is a direct student of Kato Shihan (8th Dan) from the Hombu Dojo. Kato Shihan is a direct student of O-Sensei.
Last point regarding Professorship. This term is used in various Ryu of Jujitsu to honor the accomplishments of a Yudansha who has attained 6th or 7th degree in the study of their art. It is no different than having the title of Shihan at 5th dan or attaining the title of Master at 4th degree in the study of Tae Kwon Do. Did we get those at a University? More like the School of HARD KNOCKS.
Always remember: Wearing a Blackbelt is not the same as being a Blackbelt.
I have met many so called Black Belts and Masters along the way that the only worth of their belt is to keep the gi from opening up in public. Those are shallow victories attained by very insecure people OF WHICH GEORGE KIRBY IS NOT!!!!
Thank you all for allowing me to express my viewpoints and I am sure that there will be many who will oppose it but thank God we live in a country where this is not only allowed but at times encouraged.
I always teach my students one very important concept in their training and it is as follows:
Always remember that there is one principle that will defeat any martial artist in their quest for knowledge in or out of the Dojo, and that is:

"Contempt Prior to Investigation"

[budoshin]

Your inquiry as to where the title of "professor" came from is a legitimate one. Many years ago [& the issue resurfaces periodically] the AJA was being pushed by member dojo to issue titles, of renshi, hanshi, shihan, soke, etc., etc., etc. One of the things the AJA quickly discovered is that different ryu [inside & outside the AJA] have different criteria and different ranks at which they assign Japanese titles. There were overlaps for every titles.

Rather than open Pandora's box on this issue, the Board of Directors looked at what some of the other major jujitsu organizations in the U.S. were doing. They simply used the term "professor" for any person ranked 6th-7th dan or higher. The AJA went with awarding the title of "professor" at 7th dan. AJA dojo are happy with this decision. The AJA also allows individual ryu to issue whatever titles they wish. I've had enough titles awarded to me from other orgaizations to trip over & they mean different things to different groups. I just use the term "professor" because it's simpler.

No, this title of professor is not attached to a doctorate degree from any college. It isn't meant to be. However, the title does convey a high level of knowledge and contribution to the art. BTW: There are numerous diploma mills I could send my $$ to and get a PhD diploma as could anyone else, but that wouldn't help my credibility if someone were to go searching about the issuing "university."

Maybe if the AJA was a registered educational foundation rather than a registered amateur athletic organization, the issue would not arise.

[P Goldsbury]

This thread does not belong in Bad Budo and so is moved to the general Gendai Budo forum.

Best regards to all,

[Jeff Cook]

Mr. Kirby, as one of the leaders in another US jujitsu group (USJJF), I want to say that you have my admiration and support.

Jeff Cook

[budoshin]

Jeff-
Thank you very much. I appreciate your support.

George Kirby

[George Kohler]

Since I am receiving clarification PM's, I'll repond here to save me time.

I saw Mr. Kirby's posting on E-Budo. When I was young I bought his first book, so I was interested to see what he was responding about. I read through the whole thread. I didn't see anything bad or baffling about Mr. Kirby or Budoshin Jiu Jitsu, so I asked the moderators to review the thread. Mr. Goldsbury responded saying that he also was thinking the same thing. We decided to move this to the Gendai Budo forum.

BTW, welcome to E-Budo, Mr. Kirby.

[Jeff Cook]

George Kirby, you are welcome. George Kohler, good move.

Jeff Cook

[budoshin]

Mr. Kohler,
Thank you for the additional clarification. The professionalism that guides e-Budo was the reason I responded to all the concerns in the first place. My compliments for running a professional site.

[Jitsumania]

To Mr. Kohler and Mr. Goldsbury, I extend my sincere thanks for the desicion to move Budoshin and Prof Kirby out of the bad Budo thread. Prof Kirby has been on the forefront of being responsible for the propegation of Ju-Jitsu in the USA in the most professional and honorable way. His literature(books and articles) as well as videos have served a a very valuable resource to many credible martial arts instructors and practitioners.

[MarkF]

Maybe if the AJA was a registered educational foundation rather than a registered amateur athletic organization, the issue would not arise.

I doubt it could be registered as such. It is illegal in California and many other states to use educational titles and letters such as Professor, Doctor, etc., without the legitimate educational letters from a recognized educational institution for the purpose of doing business.

I earned my doctorate with time, sweat, and research and would never think of using such a title in a martial community. Some feel that since they earned it, it now is part of one's name. That's fine, but just as many are very angry at those who do use diploma Mill PhD and self-awarded professors and "dr." when they did not earn it. It is easy to do, placing such a title before one's name, or after it, but it is quite another to earn it only to have falsehoods and phony "doctors" feel they can use such titles willy nilly. It may have been easy, but it is an insult to those who worked very hard for it.

If you think "professors" of martial arts are eqivalent, you are dead wrong.

Just so you know, I disagree with my fellow moderators in that I believe "bad budo" was just where this thread belonged. As a matter of fact, I was not the person who placed it there. It was originally posted in the "Baffling Budo" forum and moved there, I believe by the owner/administrator, John Lindsey.

"Bad Budo" was created to discuss questionable made up martial arts (especially those not Japanese like Budoshin), questionable teaching methods and mainly business practices, title-wearers and the like. It is also for the criminals who take advantage of young people as one of these types is one too many. I won't move this thread out of Gendai as it is my forum, and because I basically opened the discussion of Budoshin many, many years ago, I guess it should be my responsability. I did not moderate this forum then. So be it.

Anyway, I thank Mr. Kirby and his students for coming here to discuss the original problem which was and still is video teaching. Because there is no Budoshin dojo near you does not mean you cannot do something else, and, when able, join a budoshin dojo later. People travel to foreign countries, as in Japan, get a job just to be close to their chosen style. If this is so important, such a move should not be such a problem. With a four year college degree just about anyone can get a job teaching English or do other work there. I am not suggesting that for Budoshin as modern jujutsu styles are all over the place, mostly based on Kodokan Judo. As I have stated many times, as long as the instructors are honest and you are happy doing whatever it is you are doing, no one will get hurt. The problem is, many ARE not so honest and play the moves handed to them, usually titled and "graded" highly.


Best Regards,

[Brian Griffin]

It is illegal in California and many other states to use educational titles and letters such as Professor, Doctor, etc., without the legitimate educational letters from a recognized educational institution for the purpose of doing business.

California law restricts the use of several titles to people who hold state licenses from the appropriate regulatory agency. As far as I can tell, "professor" is not one of those restricted titles. If someone knows of a statute that says otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.

The only limitation on calling yourself "Doctor" would arise if you use the title to imply (falsely) that you are a licensed physician.

[George Kohler]

It was originally posted in the "Baffling Budo" forum and moved there, I believe by the owner/administrator, John Lindsey.

At the time of the first post of this thread, we did not have a Baffling Budo forum. All questions came through Bad Budo and it wasn't until later that we added Baffling Budo. The first time Baffling budo forum was used was July 9, 2002. So in this case the thread was made March 26, 2001 and had 6 posts from that point. The thread was dormant in the Bad Budo forum until Nov 2003.

So, as to who moved it to Bad Budo, no one did and certainly not John Lindsey. Since July 2002 no one can start threads in Bad Budo.

[Jeff Cook]

Mark's accusation concerning the legal use of the title "professor" is a serious one. I would like to hear and learn more about this.

Jeff Cook