Budoshin Jiu Jitsu?

[Mark Barlow]

"Mark's accusation concerning the legal use of the title "professor" is a serious one. I would like to hear and learn more about this.

Jeff Cook"

I don't think accusation is the right term... It seemed more of an observation to me. I'll be honest and say I'm not a big fan of that particular title but then, I not crazy about master and grand master either.

[Jeff Cook]

Mark and Mark, my apologies for using the word "accusation." Perhaps I read more into Mark F.'s post than I should have. Thanks for keeping me straight.

Jeff Cook

[Jitsumania]

Anyway, I thank Mr. Kirby and his students for coming here to discuss the original problem which was and still is video teaching. Because there is no Budoshin dojo near you does not mean you cannot do something else, and, when able, join a budoshin dojo later. People travel to foreign countries, as in Japan, get a job just to be close to their chosen style. If this is so important, such a move should not be such a problem. With a four year college degree just about anyone can get a job teaching English or do other work there. I am not suggesting that for Budoshin as modern jujutsu styles are all over the place, mostly based on Kodokan Judo. As I have stated many times, as long as the instructors are honest and you are happy doing whatever it is you are doing, no one will get hurt. The problem is, many ARE not so honest and play the moves handed to them, usually titled and "graded" highly.

I have a few questions of relevance to the above stated comments:

People travel to foreign countries, as in Japan, get a job just to be close to their chosen style. If this is so important, such a move should not be such a problem.

There may exist the possibility that the financial resources to execute such a move may not be available as in the case of this writer. I am fairly well educated and hold a Masters degree and make 6 figure income. Does this mean that I uproot my family of 6 children, spouse, pets etc so that I could go and study Aikido at the Hombu Dojo with Kato Shihan because of my own desires. Or maybe I just inform them that I am leaving on a sabatical abroad for a year or so to go study Martial Arts . How many people who practice Martial Arts actually possess the resources to engage in such behavior? Some of us are busy paying the bills to support our family.

With a four year college degree just about anyone can get a job teaching English or do other work there.

Can someone clarify for me how many martial artists actually possess four year degrees vs those who don't? Having studied social sciences I would venture to make an educated guess that there is more preponderance of non 4 year degreed practitioners than those with degrees. What kind of jobs would the non degreed person be eligible for in Japan, China, etc.?

I am not suggesting that for Budoshin as modern jujutsu styles are all over the place, mostly based on Kodokan Judo.

"Bad Budo" was created to discuss questionable made up martial arts (especially those not Japanese like Budoshin),

"if A implies B and B implies C then A implies C" (Symbolic logic formula)
Based on the above quotes there appears to be flaw in the 2 conflicting statements ,because if "Budoshin as other modern Jujitsu styles" are based on Kodokan Judo, is Kodokan Judo then not a Japanese Martial art.


It may be interesting to note that the inception of Kodokan Judo developed by Professor Jigoro Kano was the brainchild of Professor Kano and the heads of various Jujitsu ryuha which Professor Kano consulted over an extended period of time. Judo techniques were modified jujitsu techniques that were made safer for generalized practice and sport. So which came first "the chicken or the egg"? Another example of this could be the development of Aikido from Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu. The founder injected his own techniques, as well as those of Daito Ryu and is spiritual beliefs to form a system practiced wordwide! Effective system, ABSOLUTELY.

It seems to me that Professor Kirby and the Budoshin system has been placed on the same plane (Bad Budo) as such charlatans as Ashida Kim and his Ninjitsu system LOL. YOU HAVE TO WORK HARD FOR ANYTHING THAT THE BUDOSHIN SYSTEM HAS TO OFFER YOU WITH REGARD TO RANK, VIA VIDEO OR NOT!!
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME ASK MY BUDOSHIN YUDANSHA WHO WERE TRAINED BY A DISTANCE METHOD TAUGHT SENSEI regarding the effectivity of his training and the effects of the techniques on their body.

BTW:It is because of the advent of audio-Video technology that we have been able to spread information to regions of the world that would not have been privi prior to the technology. We have trained people to do things they were not capable of doing prior to the days of video training.

[MarkF]

"if A implies B and B implies C then A implies C" (Symbolic logic formula)

You can imply, symbolically, anything you wish. You also know that I am right.

People make sacrifices and some feel their ryu (read tradition) is worth the sacrifice and that was my point.

If you really believe you can compare Mr. Kirby to Kano Jigoro, I really feel bad for the time you have wasted. I have also stated repeatedly, that Mr. Kirby and I have discussed our differences on more than one occasion by email, and we came to a friendly arrangement to simply disagree.

If that is not possible with the rest of you, go at it.

hi, Brian,

What do you think of changing it to Perfessor, then? I have no problem with that one.


Mark

[Jitsumania]

You can imply, symbolically, anything you wish. You also know that I am right.

If I believed that you were totally right why would I be posting an opposing viewpoint?

If you really believe you can compare Mr. Kirby to Kano Jigoro, I really feel bad for the time you have wasted.

I have read through my last post and cannot find a single instance of having compared Prof. Kirby with Prof. Jigoro Kano. These two men have varied accomplishments in their life and it would be like comparing apples to oranges. I am a devout follower of Judo and hold Yudansha rank in it's practice as well. I firmly believe that my trek in the Martial arts has never been "WASTED". I have acquired much knowledge (my quest for knowledge continues) and a vast array of acquaintences and friends, some very famous and others not so famous but still just as valued.

I have also stated repeatedly, that Mr. Kirby and I have discussed our differences on more than one occasion by email, and we came to a friendly arrangement to simply disagree

I will say this - I do not have to agree with any one persons opinion, but I will definately defend to the end the right of that person to have his opinion. That is one of the principles that this great country is founded on.
Then let it be known that I also will reserve the right to a friendly "agree to disagree!"

By the way, would "Perfessor" be a newly created word to be placed between perfervid and perfidious in the Websters Collegiate Dictionary? Anglo ebonics maybe?
May God Bless you all and keep you in his graces and blessings.

[Brian Owens]

..."if A implies B and B implies C then A implies C" (Symbolic logic formula)
Based on the above quotes there appears to be flaw in the 2 conflicting statements ,because if "Budoshin as other modern Jujitsu styles" are based on Kodokan Judo, is Kodokan Judo then not a Japanese Martial art....

Let's see if I understand what you're saying.

A) Some modern jujutsu styles are based on Kodokan Judo.
B) Kodokan Judo is a Japanese art.
C) Therefore the modern jujutsu styles are Japanese arts.

I'm afraid that's psuedo logic.

A) I am an American, born in the Oregon.
B) My maternal grandmother was born in Bohemia.
C) Oregon is part of Bohemia?

I don't think so.

In both examples, A --> B; but B -/-> C, therefore A -/-> C.

[Jitsumania]

Ouch Brian! Point taken and I stand corrected. The general gist of the message remains, that we must examine carefully what we infer when reading about, or into something.
I must say that I have really enjoyed some of the mental sparring with regard to presentation of viewpoints. What I do appreciate is that it is always done in a professional manner even though some viewpoints are expressed fairly rigorous, (mine included). I will say this, I will always respect (even if I disgree) a person who stands by their convictions and beliefs (Mark F., George Kirby, Brian, and others who have posted).
I hope that my opinions have not offended anyone and if they have I offer sincere apologies as this was not the spirit in which they were intended. This is a wonderful site and I hope to visit frequently so as to further my own quest for knowledge and foster networking with brothers and sisters in the art. I also like to do a little fair spirited mental sparring as well, when needed.
Keeps the mind sharp.
Domo Arigato and God bless you all.

[MarkF]

I hope that my opinions have not offended anyone and if they have I offer sincere apologies as this was not the spirit in which they were intended.

Don't worry about it. I don't have a fuse, it just explodes out of me.


Mark f.

PS: But not very often these days.

[jwinch2]

I earned my doctorate with time, sweat, and research and would never think of using such a title in a martial community. Some feel that since they earned it, it now is part of one's name. That's fine, but just as many are very angry at those who do use diploma Mill PhD and self-awarded professors and "dr." when they did not earn it. It is easy to do, placing such a title before one's name, or after it, but it is quite another to earn it only to have falsehoods and phony "doctors" feel they can use such titles willy nilly. It may have been easy, but it is an insult to those who worked very hard for it.

If you think "professors" of martial arts are eqivalent, you are dead wrong.

I agree 100% Mark... If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your doctorate? I am currently doing mine at LSU and going through the "time, sweat, and research" that you mentioned above.

Later,

Jason

[MarkF]

I went to UCLA School of Pharmacy. I also took a post doc course in pharmacology.

Really, I used to have the energy to do it.


Mark

[jwinch2]

I went to UCLA School of Pharmacy. I also took a post doc course in pharmacology.

Really, I used to have the energy to do it.


Mark

Cool,

Thaks Mark!

Later...

[Custodian]

From what I could gather from these posts, there are two types of Seki-ryu Jujutsu floating around out here in the world.

I want to know which one I am going to be involved in... I get an introduction into jujutsu class tomorrow.

http://www.gendaimartialarts.com/?page_id=42

This is one of the school's instructors.

So is this man...

http://raleighselfdefense.com/
http://www.gendaimartialarts.com/?page_id=46

Is he teaching the art he learned from this man?

http://www.visualprospects.com/sekir...anzo_seki.html

http://www.budoshin.com/bjjfact.htm

I am just looking for some clarification if what I am going to be learning is worth it.

If not there is a traditional Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei (associated with the Genbukan) school near me as well.

http://www.nijinohashidojo.com/

I just want to know exactly what I am learning and maybe you guys can help. Thanks in advance.

[budoshin]

Jordan-
The best thing for you to do is to contact Skip Koepke at seki4ryu@gmail.com and ask him to verify the sensei your checking out & his rank.

Skip was a long time student of Sanzo Seki for many years, as was I.

The term "Seki-ryu" did not appear until Seki's passing to the great tatami up in the sky. Supposedly Seki gave Linda Gross and/or Skip Koepke the right to use his name in memory of what he had taught. I was not involved in the intracies of how this came about. Again, Skip or Linda could give you the details.

Seki's position on "ryu" was that there was only jujitsu - not any ryu. [Seki is essentially correct here.]

In the early 1970's Bill Fromm & I approached Seki to ask if we could put the word "budoshin" [which means to conduct oneself in an honorable and knightly manner] as so many people were asking Bill and me what "ryu" we taught. [We had a really popular program at the Burbank Y at the time.] Seki went along with it on the condition that we didn't use the word "ryu". So basically, that's where "Budoshin Ju-Jitsu" came from. Budoshin Ju-Jitsu not only contains the teachings of Seki, but also elements from Ketsugo Jujitsu as taught by Harold Brosious. It would not be appropriate to say I am teaching Seki-ryu Jujitsu for that reason.

Hope I've been helpful. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me at senseigk@budoshin.com .

-George Kirby

[Custodian]

I believe I will have an opportunity to speak with him tomorrow.

So, you are saying this style is credible to invest and learn in? Good to know. I personally don't care what the philosophy is called at the moment, maybe that is my ignorance speaking, but I am not even a student yet, and maybe my view will change after some time.

Sometimes, I have had a hard time getting a straight answer in area of interest. There was "master" in my area, who spent 20 years in Korea in the military, who had a school of "self-defense, street-oriented eclectic taekwondo, hapkido, taekyon, and hwarangdo" as he put it.

Today, the building where the school is now for rent again. It could have been credible, but I steered far from it.

In fact, I steer clear of the words "taekwondo", had a bad experience with a K.S. Lee TKD school a long time ago. It turned me off from the martial arts for a long time.

I did a small stint with a Wing Chun school, but found it was not applicable to my profession's use-of-force laws, rules, and policies.

By the way, does traditional mean better [gi s, kata, etc]? Or is the modern approach [no gi, no kata,etc.]

[budoshin]

Jordan-
The validity of a ryu/style and the validity of an instructor are entirely two different things. Seki taught everything against street attacks from the first moment you got onto his mat. He also taught the "art" of techniques at the same time. It is an interesting confluence, but it does work in the long run. Whether it be Seki-ryu or Budoshin, this instructional approach is unique to both systems. Some ryu of jujitsu will not teach street self-defense until you reach shodan [1st black belt].

Whether an instructor is really qualified to teach any art is an entirely different matter. I usually tell prospective students to look at the following items before "signing their lives away":

1. Check the certificate of rank & you may want to check out the organization/sensei who gave the rank. [The internet is an amazing resource]. If there are enough certificates of different arts to create "wallpaper", I'd start asking serious questions & getting addresses for verification.

2. Is the instructional program and the testing process [belt rank requirements] available for you to see?

3. Watch the class as many times as necessary to feel comfortable with what's going on.

4. Watch how the lower ranked & higher ranked students interact with each other because that's how you'll be treated. This is the most important element to be comfortable with.

5. Don't sign any long term contract until you've been in the class 1-2 months & like what's going on. It may be a bit more expensive in the short run but could save you big bucks in the long run if the class is not what you expected.

"Traditional" jujitsu usually refers to being from Japan, along with some of the formalities, including gi, Japanese terminology, kata [repetitive practice], etc. Seki kept this to a minimum - except sometimes for kata; "Do 25 koshi nage [hip throws] kata-no-nage [go through all the movements except completing the throw] & then throw your partner once. [Seki did engage in verbal harassment on the mat though. The higher you were in rank the more he'd harass. He periodically explained the process in class thusly: "if your ticky-ticky gets upset at what people say to you, you have no business studying a martial art, especially jujitsu. Some of his upper belts left due to the harassment. The rest of us learned to let it go in one ear & out the other. I don't think any sensei could get away with that today.] I think using some of the formalities are worthwhile. However, there are sensei [in any martial art] who really go overboard on this stuff for their own personal self-aggrandizement. There is a difference between treating each other and the art with respect and doing a lot of grovelling. The key is "everything in moderation."

I'm not sure what "modern" jujitsu is. It may refer to abandonment of the formal aspects of the art mentioned above. It might be "newer" jujitsu such as Brazilian. I really can't give you a good answer.

Hope I've been helpful & didn't get sidetracked too much.

-George Kirby