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Thread: "You fight like you train and train like you fight" OR DO YOU?

  1. #31
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    Don't forget the other proviso. Got to take the weapon off SAFE for the weapon to go bang. I saw that particular thing happen to an Olympic-level shooter at a demo. It's ha-ha funny at a demo, but it could be messy in a social situation.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    ...The negligent discharge - formerly known as the accidental discharge (and probably still should be....) is when the finger presses the trigger when the shooter does not want to do so.
    Sorry for the off-topic tangent, but I agree with you. "Negligent discharge" should be reserved for cases where the shooter intended to fire but shouldn't have, which is different from firing when one didn't intend to.

    If you're shooting in your back yard and the round goes through your fence and kills the neighbor's dog, that is a negligent discharge. If you're drawing from a SERPA holster and your finger goes into the trigger guard after pressing the release button, firing the gun as you go to put it in your locker, that is an accidental discharge.

    (And no, neither has ever happened to me.)
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  3. #33
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    When I was in the academy the firearms instructors told us of a shoot out in which the officers died with pockets full of spent brass.
    Why?
    During training instead of dumping the spent brass (they were using revolvers so that tells you how old this story is) on the floor they were made to put the brass in their pockets, keeping the range clean and all that.
    Well, during the stress of a shoot out muscle memory took over and they kept pocketing their brass and it cost them.

    During our training magazines were just dropped to the floor during an exchange and not picked up until we were cleaning up.
    We were also not allowed to eject the current magazine until we had our free hand on the replacement.
    To this day when I go to a private range where it is not practical to just let the magazine drop I have to stop and make myself take out the magazine.

    This is also why anyone designing a replacement rifle for the military (U.S.) designs it with the same control groupings as the current issue.
    Less retraining and chance for mishap.

    You will fight how you train, hell you'll do anything the same way you train, that's the point of training.
    The question is, do you know how to properly train to "fight"?

    In regards to less is more.
    They say when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
    Well, there are over 20 types of hammers and over 40 types of nails.
    That's enough variety for me.
    Joe Stitz

    "Black belt and white belt are the same, white belt is the beginning of technique. Black belt is the beginning of understanding. Both are beginner belts."
    - Doug Perry -Hanshi, KuDan -Shorin Ryu ShorinKan

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Scardina View Post
    The discussion upon Law Enforcement, training of, firearms, etc., can go on infinity. Finding situations on either side.
    A LEO, has to not only be accustomed and trained with his firearm, but other tools such as driving skills, PR24 or other cudgel (were applicable in county), X26 Taser, communications-radio, perp submission-basic hand training, etc.

    THEREFORE, HE HAS TO STUDY AND LEARN "MORE"

    The basic concept I hold to is more is better (as long as it is applicable)

    For example, to fight better, one should not solely rely on stand-up methods. The "more" or add to this is also to study grappling art
    Richard,
    May I offer a different take?
    If my talents and genetics make me a better stand up fighter, why would I split my already limited training time on another competing skill set.
    Wouldn't my training time be better spent on how to leverage my skill set against a grappler?
    i.e. learning how to get back to my feet quickly if taken down, preventing myself from being taken down in the first place?

    Japanese Judo players tend to only have 2 throws, a number one technique and a number two technique.
    The thing is, they know them so well they can apply them in almost any situation or know how to create the situation that will allow them to use one of these two techniques.

    In the examples you gave for the LEO the "More" were different skill sets, not competing skills.
    i.e. he is training with one pistol, using one type of baton, driving one type of vehicle.
    in regards to the taser, there have been incidents where the office thinks he is reaching for his taser and shoots his pistol,
    That's why you will more often than not see the taser carried on the opposite hip as opposed to a drop holster on the gun side as it was once done.
    Joe Stitz

    "Black belt and white belt are the same, white belt is the beginning of technique. Black belt is the beginning of understanding. Both are beginner belts."
    - Doug Perry -Hanshi, KuDan -Shorin Ryu ShorinKan

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS3 View Post
    When I was in the academy the firearms instructors told us of a shoot out in which the officers died with pockets full of spent brass.
    Why?
    During training instead of dumping the spent brass (they were using revolvers so that tells you how old this story is) on the floor they were made to put the brass in their pockets, keeping the range clean and all that.
    Well, during the stress of a shoot out muscle memory took over and they kept pocketing their brass and it cost them.

    .
    Joe's referring to the Newhall Incident here. And some other good points.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS3 View Post
    When I was in the academy the firearms instructors told us of a shoot out in which the officers died with pockets full of spent brass.
    Why? During training instead of dumping the spent brass (they were using revolvers so that tells you how old this story is) on the floor they were made to put the brass in their pockets, keeping the range clean and all that. Well, during the stress of a shoot out muscle memory took over and they kept pocketing their brass and it cost them.
    I was told the same story at my academy, except in the version I was told it was a lone NYPD officer; and while it makes a good story, it turns out not to be true. It didn't happen at Newhall, either.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS3 View Post

    In the examples you gave for the LEO the "More" were different skill sets, not competing skills.
    i.e. he is training with one pistol, using one type of baton, driving one type of vehicle.
    in regards to the taser, there have been incidents where the office thinks he is reaching for his taser and shoots his pistol,
    That's why you will more often than not see the taser carried on the opposite hip as opposed to a drop holster on the gun side as it was once done.
    The more is in the number of things he has to learn in order to become better

    The more is in the items as well as his training with these items.

    Police of this era has "more" than the police decades ago

    I am not concerned on the mistakes of what has to be done, as this applies to "more" training" and understanding

    As for Judo, the Judoka better study more for street survival, esp in the areas I know of where two throws will never be enough
    Richard Scardina

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    It didn't happen at Newhall, either.
    Hey Brian - do you have a reputable, quotable source for this? I know there is a new book out on Newhall but haven't seen a review that specifically talks about that element.

    Seen people do some things under even the stress of simuntion that I would not be surprised that this did/could occur, but it would be nice to debunk it if it has been shown not to be true.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  9. #39
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    Kit --

    Is this what you're looking for? http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Saf...hall-Incident/

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    Thanks Joe, I never saw that one!

    Goes to show how much we "think" we know is simply legend repeated oft enough that it becomes truth. How much moreso the hundreds of years old "traditions" we have in martial arts. This one is but decades old and has been repeated umpteen times in training as "what happened."
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  11. #41
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    One must always seek to "discover" rather than "just follow"
    Richard Scardina

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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Hey Brian - do you have a reputable, quotable source for this? I know there is a new book out on Newhall but haven't seen a review that specifically talks about that element.
    Sorry for not responding sooner, but I've been off the forum for a few days.

    Joe provided the PoliceOne link, but here's another:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_massacre

    HTH.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  14. #43
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    Hick's law is the most often misquoted and misapplied thing in martial arts/police/military training today. If someone mentions Hick's law to support what they do, I already know they don't know much or they would have found out it doesn't apply.

    Here is an article also discussing the misapplication of Hicks Law and WHERE and HOW Hick's law was originally used (hint 1950's computers) and how newer studies based on PEOPLE have shown it doesn't apply.

    Also, studies have found that once a skill is trained so much that it becomes automatic, it bypasses the adrenaline dump and does NOT effect performance of fine motor skills. For example, fighter pilots executing multiple high level fine motor skills, or Navy SEALS taking precisions shots with their sidearms during entries.

    http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/hickslaw.htm
    "Hard won, buy easy lost. True karate does not stay where it is not being used."

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    Studies are showing that certain people actually have genetic characteristics in body chemistry allowing them to process stress better than others; perhaps not surprisingly those successfully completing special operations selections tend to have these characteristics.

    Some interesting early reading on something akin to this is The Ace Factor by Mike Spick. Even novices scoring high on natural situational awareness (SA) skills tests performed closely with well trained performers scoring similarly on the same tests; and well trained individuals who did not score highly in SA dd not perform as well as novices....

    FWIW - and I can't quote where I got this from though it was noted at a Force Science seminar I attended - even the lauded Navy SEALS engaged in unconscious "trigger checks" when tested on realistic entry training. That is, despite the protests of the SEALS themselves that they "never touched their triggers unless they needed to shoot," many actually did - multiple times - during training when sensors were applied to their trigger.

    NO level of training and experience makes you immune to human foibles. It CAN make you complacent, which is equally problematic.

    GOOD training does go a long way to making for better performance under stress, IF that training mimics similar stress and dynamics as the real thing; and some people exist on both ends of the spectrum: those that respond much better to training and are even quite effective without it, and some people just never do get it despite extensive training.

    And EVERYBODY has a tendency to overestimate their own abilities and how they'll "do...." some even despite mounting evidence that they are the latter kind of "never get it" people.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Something else the training does is it lets co-workers see who routinely a) chokes or b) just as routinely grandstands. Once you know that, you know who to send for coffee and who to put out in front of the media, while everybody else settles in to do some heavy lifting.

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