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Thread: Shorinji Kempo and Zen

  1. #1
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    This is mostly intended as an addendum to an interesting debate on the forum a while back about the philosophical content of Kempo. I feel that chinkon and howa as a rule are essential components of Shorinji kempo (as opposed to just plain old kempo) practice. At the same time, I acknowledge the difficulty that some students coming to kempo from disparate religious, cultural or philosophical backgrounds might have with an apparent insistence that you be a practising Zen buddhist in order to do Kempo. I've had this debate with other kenshi in the Glasgow club, about where and when the teaching of philosophy might be appropriate in diffferent contexts. Most of my teaching experience has been in the context of university dojos; here I have always felt that making the philosophical content explicit is important, apart from anything else, in order to enable people to make a choice about how much of it to take on board, rather than just have it infilitrating their consciousness through the medium of the training. The other side of the debate was basically is that this might be all well and good in a university club, but would it work as well if you were trying to start a dojo in one of the rougher parts of Glasgow? If making the philosophy more overt would deny people (and thus society) the benefits of training in Kempo, which is the greater good? This wasn't something I had a ready answer to, and I still don't. It seems to me that in the west there is probably an inevitable tension between wanting to spread the benefits of doing Kempo as widely as possible, and the risk of diluting the qualities that make the activity worthwhile. How we balance this does seem problematic, and I'd be interested to see what everybody else thinks..

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    Hi Tony, recovered from the UTS yet

    Don't know what you mean by this
    with an apparent insistence that you be a practising Zen buddhist in order to do Kempo.
    I have never heard this said by any instructors, least of all Mizuno sensei, and not even heard it stated in Japan (even if many Japanese Sensei/ Kenshi are practicing Buddhists).

    The only thing that you should have is an open mind and an interest in Buddhist ideas/ principles.

    BTW Shorinji is biggest outside of Japan in Indonesia (a muslim country!!!)
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




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    Smile Shorinji kempo & Zen

    Hi Tony, Steve,

    Although I probably consider myself more Buddhist than Christian. This has not come about by any insistence from anyone I have been taught by, just my own personal beliefs.

    I'm not aware of anyone being told they must be Buddhist to practice Shorinji Kempo these days. Possibly in it's early history this may have been true.

    Cheers

    Colin Linz

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    Hi All,

    <quote><b>with an apparent insistence that you be a practising Zen Buddhist</b></quote>

    I think the key thing here is "apparent" - for the beginners who finds themselves standing up reciting a creed based on basic Buddhist ideals it would certainly 'appear' to be insistent.

    With regard to the wider issue raised by Tony; my approach is - should anyone show concern at the methodology, concentrate on the aims and objectives of the philosophy. As has been proven countless times around the world it is possible, indeed even beneficial, to have people with sincere religious beliefs counted among the SK membership. It adds diversity and provides a wider perspective on how those very basic ideals find a practical place in society. It also proves that SK is not about being a Zen Buddhist, but being a self reliant, productive, considerate, co-operative member of society. I cannot think of a single world religion with which these ideals would cause conflict.

    One area, which may be cause for concern in some areas, is the essential 'godless' nature of SK philosophy. Again this does not presuppose that practitioners deny the existence of a 'higher being/power' but instead accept that primary responsibility for influence on their own circumstances (and those of society as a whole) lies with themselves and not at the whim of an invisible being ready to mete out punishment or reward according to their actions.

    Though I have no personal experience, I have heard that some interpret the theory of dharma as a claim to the non-existence of such a 'being/power'. For my part, I would suggest that anyone with such concerns considers dharma as that which comes from said entity and not that which replaces it.

    Later,
    George Hyde

    UCL, ULU, SOAS Dojo
    British Shorinji Kempo Federation

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    Originally posted by Steve Williams
    BTW Shorinji is biggest outside of Japan in Indonesia (a muslim country!!!)
    Taking that statement at face value, it does not mean that the majority of Indonesians that practice Shorinji Kempo are Muslims.
    Raul Rodriguez
    Shorinji Kempo New York City Branch

    http://www.ShorinjiKempoNYC.org

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    True that all Indonesians who practice are not practicing muslims (although I don't know for sure), but it just shows that Shorinji practicioners are not required to become buddhist to train.

    It just shows the racial and religious boundaries that any good and true form of Budo can cross
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




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    Hi Steve and Raul,

    I came from Indonesia, and had practiced Shorinji Kempo while I was there. I would say more than 80% Indonesian Kenshi are moslem. Some of the female kenshi even practice Shorinji Kempo with a traditional head cover (I don't know the name but I think it is some kind a religious aspect in moslem). But, they are very open for discussion about the zen and other buddhism aspect in Shorinji Kempo.

    Regards,

    Johannes H. Wijaya

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    Default Zen and Shorinji kempo (contd)

    Thanks for the replies to my posting. Maybe I wasn't quite explicit enough with some of my reasoning, or the specific nature of the problem I was raising. I would grant fully that there is no requirement that you be a practising Zen Buddhist to be a kenshi, and that there is no necessary conflict between the ethical content of kempo and that of the major world religions. As a friend of mine is wont to say, ultimately it's all about respect- or the ability to put compassion and empathy for the suffering of others into action, as I prefer to put it. I think anybody who teaches S.K. has a right and obligation to ensure that their students take this ethical content on board, certainly in terms of the practice and application of techniques. I also think that one of the great things about Zen is that it isn't exclusionary - you can benefit from Zen disciplines while simultaenously being a Christian, Moslem or Zoroastrian. What I was talking about was the perception of people coming to kempo for the first time, and the possibilty of alienating people whom might be among those most urgently in need of the kind of benefits that kempo could give them (i.e. those from relatively underprivileged backgrounds). The kind of philosophical difficulty that somebody earnestly believing in a personal deity might have when confronted with the concept of dharma is something else again....

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    Default re: Zen in Shorinji Kempo

    I have been following this thread for the last while and I thought I'd throw in my two cents worth.

    When I'm not practicing Shorinji Kempo I am a high school teacher of history and philosophy. It is relatively unusual in North America that high schools offer philosophy courses. Obviously, those students that generally register for these courses are quite keen and have at least an interest in doing the kind of academic work that such a course entails.

    I think that some of the challenges we encounter, however, might be similar in certain ways to the problems we are discussing in this forum. Some of the material we study, Hegel and Kant for example, are very difficult to read for anyone, let alone an 18 year old exploring this discipline for the first time. It is very challenging for me to try and impart a sense of what they are talking about without watering the ideas down so much that they are distorted or worse. Incidentally, we do spend some time dealing with certain concepts familiar to Shorinji Kempo and other Buddhist and Hindu influenced traditions.

    I suppose the connection I am trying to make is that for an individual who is attracted to Shorinji Kempo for, say, purely technical reasons, it may well be possible to present the ethical/philosophical side of Shorinji Kempo in a simplified manner at first. This is generally done with beginners anyway. As the individual progresses, details of the origins and purpose of Shorinji Kempo can be further explained. I would add that the actual method of Shorinji Kempo training is an important aid in this respect.

    I have had personal experience which can attest to the effectiveness of such an approach. When I first moved to Japan, my limited command of the language meant that my understanding of the howa was limited as well. Of course, I had a text to work from, but as my Japanese improved, it became clear to me that the physical training in the dojo was an important part of the philosophical training. The example set by senior members of the branch, the demeanor of the teachers and students, and the involvement of our branch in the community served to emphasize in action that which we read and discussed in theory.

    In any case, I think it's worth a shot.

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    Default Zen and Shorinji Kempo (cont)

    Don't know quite what the etiquette is with these things - whether if you've initiated a thread it's the done thing to jump right back with a reply to the most recent posting. However:-

    I'd agree with Thomas that as far as the philosophy of Kempo goes how it is embodied in Kempo practice is at least as important (probably more so) than how it's represented in howa talks. When I started in the Glasgow dojo, the people running the club didn't seem to be that much into the philosophy - it was taught, but not as something you need have a personal commitment to. (It is of course possible to relate to Kempo philosophy on any number of levels, and Zen in general seems to be quite amenable to being adapted to an indvidual's needs and requirements. In fact, one of the things that appeals to me about it as an approach to being religious is that the truth is something you have to realise for yourself rather than be given). Neverthless, the fact that there was more to this activity than punching, kicking, and chucking people about was apparent to me, and it was apparent through the training. As I said in my original posting though, I do think that the philosophy should be made explicit so people can make choices, though this wouldn't necessarily mean that it would have to be dumped on beginners all at once. I would agree with Thomas though that the point about Kempo is that it's a philosophy of action, and the ability to write a thesis on the logical necessity of compassionate behaviour is not as important as the ability and inclination to actually behave accordingly...

  11. #11
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Shorinji Kempo as Religion?

    I know I'm coming to this late, but I only found out about the forum yesterday.
    I appreciate Tony's concern over whether the "religious" content of SK can be off-putting to some people; I remember at Brixton once, many years ago, two young (early 20s) Irish lads came along. They joined in taiso and kihon with no problem, but when it came to chinkon, and they heard the line, "We are grateful for our souls from Dharma...", they got up and left, as good Catholics are wont to do...
    I think what needs to be defined here are the terms. Is SK a "religion" in the theistic sense, or is the howa, etc., more akin to a moral code? Organizations such as the Secular Society distinguish between the two, often to rebut the charge that only religious leaders such as priests have the moral wherewithal to comment on ethical issues. (Note how the UK government consults the COE for advice on cloning, etc.)
    This also touches on the practical application of SK teachings; Can you call yourself a Kenshi if you know all the howa backwards, but never practice what you preach? People often pay lip service to their "religion", as in, "I'm a Catholic, because my family's Catholic and I believe in God, but I never go to church," whereas what they really mean is, "I'm hedging my bets because I don't want to go to Hell, but I'm not really sure that all the obedience is worth it." In other words, they're taking Pascal's wager.
    In the end, it's probably best to stress that SK is not a religion in the theistic sense, but its moral code is drawn from Buddhism, and the influence is visible. Remember, though, that if newcomers find the howa distasteful because all they want is to learn how to fight, they probably aren't suited to SK anyhow...
    Last edited by Kimpatsu; 11th October 2001 at 09:00.

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    Gassho.
    Hi Kimpatsu.

    Welcome to e-budo!
    Just a reminder of Forum Rules:
    Please sign your posts with your full name.
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

  13. #13
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Apologies

    Sorry, Anders,
    I thought I'd attached my signature block. Better luck this time.
    Tony Kehoe
    PS: I had dinner with Mizuno Sensei here in Tokyo last night.
    Last edited by Kimpatsu; 11th October 2001 at 09:28.

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    Default shorinji kempo and Zen

    This is a somewhat belated response to a psot from Tony Kehoe a while back (apologies for any inadvertant discourtesy or just annoying irrelevance but i check email about once a month).

    I would actually agree with the an implication of what Tony - that the philosophy is a useful filter to discourage people who just want to cherry pick Kempo as a manual of fighting techniques. I have sen people who comes along from other systems who are interested in juho waza. Of course there's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to try something different, but the fact that the philosophy and techniques come as a package hopefully dissuades the kind of student who is just interested in bujitsu rather than budo

  15. #15
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Better Late Than Never

    Hey, Tony,
    It's me; the Translator. Good to hear from you.
    Thank you for the support; it's long been my contentation that the largest problem with certain MA styles is the idea that you can just go anywhere, pick up a few techniques, and leave, like a pick-'n'-mix. SK requires commitment, like a marriage.
    Best to all in Glasgow.
    Kesshu,

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