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Thread: why so many leg defense moves in MSR/MJER and no torso defense?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    This is not the way that I understand it to work. The way I have been taught, kata are not there to teach "techniques" or "situational responses". Kata are to teach basic body movements. Where your opponent in the kata is, and what they are doing, is only so that you'll cut or move in the manner in which the creator of the kata wishes to have ingrained in the practitioner. This is why your opponent will often do things in a kata that make no sense from a situational standpoint. It is also the reason that what your opponent is doing will change, depending upon what the head of the school decides needs more emphasis.

    Attempting to deconstruct kata to glean "techniques" from them is begging for frustration, in my opinion.
    Yes. There is no situation where Sodome makes sense but if you can master that waza you a lot of other things easier. The purpose of some of the waza IMO is that they are so damn difficult to do correctly. If you can do them then more basic and probably more applicable skills become way easier.
    Ed Boyd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklon View Post
    so, why in the school´s more or less 95 katas there is not a single one that teachs a defense against the most common and basic iaido move, the horizontal nukitsuke???
    Maybe because to defend against a nukitsuke you have to stop/forget about your attack? In my understanding, nukitsuke is a cut that happens as answer to the intention of an attack. You feel the intention and react with a counter attack, not a defensive move. I don't want to get into debate regarding decisive or not decisive cut, because is not the point. How and when you react is important.
    There are options to defend against a draw of the sword on you - as long as you can reach his tsuka before sword is out of saia - but in those cases you defend, you don't initiate the attack and you don't attack on his intention of attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    This is not the way that I understand it to work. The way I have been taught, kata are not there to teach "techniques" or "situational responses". Kata are to teach basic body movements. Where your opponent in the kata is, and what they are doing, is only so that you'll cut or move in the manner in which the creator of the kata wishes to have ingrained in the practitioner. This is why your opponent will often do things in a kata that make no sense from a situational standpoint. It is also the reason that what your opponent is doing will change, depending upon what the head of the school decides needs more emphasis.

    Attempting to deconstruct kata to glean "techniques" from them is begging for frustration, in my opinion.
    I started with that karate-do kata treatment mentality - kata are nothing but teaching body movements and that is it - and I decided that is not working for iaido.
    Why? because I don't need to know how to cut while passing underneath a barrier, if I don't have a scenario where I need to pass underneath the barrier. And I don't need to know how to cut a person in the crowd if I don't have a scenario where I have to push people around to get my target. What i want to say is, even the SEITEI katas make sense from the iaido scenario point of view (You have a cutting down on you, you have a parry and a cut as answer. Or an upward cut for what it's worth, depending on fighting situation) Those scenarios written in the iaido bible make sense for me - and is normal, since their roots are in koryu. And they teach you what can be done in the efficient way - aka without being killed. The hard part is to really get it, and become efficient. I tried those katas with bokkens and partner, and I couldn't find a mistake the moment the speed is going closer to the actual fighting situation. Yes, in slow-motion we can think there are other options, but is not the real thing, is ... slow motion.
    PS Just the answering technic (aka the beginning) and the end counts. At least when I look at the kata with an iaido type of fighting approach (cut before being cut, leave the scene without someone stabbing me in my back). If were not those situational katas, I would not know how to use efficient the tsuka in a sword fight. But maybe this is me.
    Last edited by Derzis; 18th February 2016 at 03:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    ...as long as you can reach his tsuka before sword is out of saia...
    The should be "saya."
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    The should be "saya."
    THAT should be 'saya'. Thank you for correcting my typo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    THAT should be 'saya'. Thank you for correcting my typo.
    And thank you. (I hate autofill and autocorrect.)
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    If were not those situational katas, I would not know how to use efficient the tsuka in a sword fight. But maybe this is me.
    Ummm ... you don't really know if you know how to use a tsuka in a sword fight, since you've never actually engaged in a sword fight and had the opportunity to find out. You know what you THINK would work based upon your own experiments and experience. That's not the same thing, and leaves the door open to error. Thinking that you know something is a good way to prevent yourself from learning anything to the contrary, and can limit your learning by filling your cup in my experience.

    For myself, I'll go by what those with much more experience than my 20 years in the arts have shown me, and will continue to practice as I've been taught. I will also continue to change the kata as the head of our school dictates that they should be changed.

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    I have no idea what means for you know. You have a piece of wood covering a metal and you use it against bones - or hard points in general. Without those katas, you would hold the sword kendo style - tsuka kashira in your palm. Now I think you got the point of my phrase you commented on. Or maybe not, since you can't know know, right?

    To make it even clear, without those koryu katas we would have been in same position HEMA is now. Trying to reinvent the use of a thing that lost its day by day utility ages ago. How accurate the way things are linked in those katas, depends on lineage and at the end, each of us. There is a time in training when you try to understand for yourself and make it yours. Or maybe not.
    Last edited by Derzis; 19th February 2016 at 20:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    ...Without those katas, you would hold the sword kendo style - tsuka kashira in your palm.
    In some Koryu Kenjutsu systems, that's exactly how you grip the sword in many cases.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Battlefield oriented as I recall and were the kendo source of inspiration. But I might be wrong. I can see the benefit if you need more leverage for longer and heavier sword too, but this is not the point. Important is that without information we would know just limited things to do with a sword other than slash, cut, stab and parry/block. Some koryu teach you how to use saya as secondary weapon and there is no better way to pass down an info other than showing its utility. For real, you think okuden is something we don't know if is efficient or not? When you hit the ground on one side to distract attention and cut from the other side is just a scenario created to teach you body movement and muscle memory? In this case why bothering to spend years in the art? 20 are even too many if this is the case.
    Last edited by Derzis; 20th February 2016 at 05:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    Battlefield oriented as I recall and were the kendo source of inspiration. But I might be wrong.
    Since swords were actually used very little on the battlefield, I would venture to say that you're wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    I can see the benefit if you need more leverage for longer and heavier sword too, but this is not the point. Important is that without information we would know just limited things to do with a sword other than slash, cut, stab and parry/block. Some koryu teach you how to use saya as secondary weapon and there is no better way to pass down an info other than showing its utility.
    OK, if your school teaches you how to use the saya as a secondary weapon, more power to you. Not sure what your point is though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    For real, you think okuden is something we don't know if is efficient or not?
    I never said that any ryu's okuden waza is efficient or not. First, I don't have enough experience in my current school to be able to judge its okuden waza. Second, I wouldn't presume to judge any other schools okuden waza. Third, you only have your own knowledge to go by as to whether the okuden waza within your school, whichever school that may be, is efficient for whatever it is teaching you to do. Since I can guarantee that I've never once engaged in a sword duel, I have to rely on the opinions of those with more experience than myself to tell me whether I'm actually learning what I am supposed to learn, and moving the way I'm supposed to move. Perhaps you have enough training and experience to make that determination yourself, I do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    When you hit the ground on one side to distract attention and cut from the other side is just a scenario created to teach you body movement and muscle memory? In this case why bothering to spend years in the art? 20 are even too many if this is the case.
    I have no idea what that kata is meant to portray as it is not done within the school that I practice. As to why bothering to spend years in the art? Because I want to. Why else is there? The reasons that I want to are myriad, but ultimately it comes down to "because I want to". If I feel like I'm learning properly and gaining the knowledge that the head of the school in Japan thinks I should be learning, then I'm satisfied. The thing that I enjoy most in the koryu arts is the depth behind it. Given the limited amount of time that I have to devote to practice, I'm certain that my life time will not be enough for me to learn all I would like.

    Perhaps it's a language issue that's preventing understanding here, but I'll keep trying to understand the point you're trying to make. Not real sure at the moment just what that point is.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Interesting answers. In this case, affirmations like:

    "This is not the way that I understand it to work. The way I have been taught, kata are not there to teach "techniques" or "situational responses". Kata are to teach basic body movements. Where your opponent in the kata is, and what they are doing, is only so that you'll cut or move in the manner in which the creator of the kata wishes to have ingrained in the practitioner. This is why your opponent will often do things in a kata that make no sense from a situational standpoint. It is also the reason that what your opponent is doing will change, depending upon what the head of the school decides needs more emphasis.

    Attempting to deconstruct kata to glean "techniques" from them is begging for frustration, in my opinion."

    I should ignore. My bad.Lesson learnt
    Last edited by Derzis; 26th February 2016 at 00:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    Interesting answers. In this case, affirmations like:

    "This is not the way that I understand it to work. The way I have been taught, kata are not there to teach "techniques" or "situational responses". Kata are to teach basic body movements. Where your opponent in the kata is, and what they are doing, is only so that you'll cut or move in the manner in which the creator of the kata wishes to have ingrained in the practitioner. This is why your opponent will often do things in a kata that make no sense from a situational standpoint. It is also the reason that what your opponent is doing will change, depending upon what the head of the school decides needs more emphasis.

    Attempting to deconstruct kata to glean "techniques" from them is begging for frustration, in my opinion."

    I should ignore. My bad.Lesson learnt
    Hmmm ... I still don't understand the point that you're trying to make. Are you upset because I don't agree with you, or are you upset because I don't understand the arguments you're making? Perhaps you just don't understand my point. I'll make an analogy to attempt to clarify my meaning ...

    Picture yourself as a samurai walking down the street in the mid 1700's. Someone jumps out of a doorway and attacks you with their sword. Would your response be ... A) Shuffle through the various "techniques" you've learned from the kata that you've practiced until you find one that matches the situation you're in, then attempt to use it. or B) Instantly move in the manner that has been ingrained in your body through the kata that you've practiced without thinking about "techniques", or anything else. Given the speed at which a sword moves, you would have no opportunity in which to think about anything.

    Hope that clarifies what I mean. If not, then I'm afraid I don't know what else I can do to make it any clearer, and we'll just have to call this conversation done.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    No, your position was very clear.
    Upset? Why? It is internet. Everybody has the right to express his opinions. And I have the right to stop a discussion short.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    No, your position was very clear.
    Upset? Why? It is internet. Everybody has the right to express his opinions. And I have the right to stop a discussion short.
    It is true that you can quit participating in a discussion any time you wish. Of course, that indicates to me that your ideas may not be as true as you wish they were since you seem unable to support them.

    Ideas and opinions are important. Learning new things is even more important. Trying to hold on tightly to your ideas just because they are yours is detrimental to learning and should be avoided.

    Just more of my opinions.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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