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Thread: why so many leg defense moves in MSR/MJER and no torso defense?

  1. #31
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    Ok, you want me to answer to you:
    1. You have no idea what means "battlefield oriented". It means their technics are developed against persons using armours. Or their technics are adapted for fighting in armour. Day by day samurai were not armoured. Dotanuki swords were built for the use in battlefield. A+B means swords were used on battlefield. What percentage, I don't care.
    2. You said about katas that are used to train your muscle memory, generalizing. From my point of view, you are wrong. They are training tools, but with a very coherent scenario of what iaido means - no matter what ryu. But you have 20 years of experience in martial arts, so you know better - as you claimed in first post against mine
    3. Have a nice week-end. We are too off-topic.
    Last edited by Derzis; 26th February 2016 at 21:48.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    Interesting answers. In this case, affirmations like:

    "This is not the way that I understand it to work. The way I have been taught, kata are not there to teach "techniques" or "situational responses". Kata are to teach basic body movements. Where your opponent in the kata is, and what they are doing, is only so that you'll cut or move in the manner in which the creator of the kata wishes to have ingrained in the practitioner. This is why your opponent will often do things in a kata that make no sense from a situational standpoint. It is also the reason that what your opponent is doing will change, depending upon what the head of the school decides needs more emphasis.

    Attempting to deconstruct kata to glean "techniques" from them is begging for frustration, in my opinion."

    I should ignore. My bad.Lesson learnt
    I read most of your posts and you really dont seems to know what you are talking about. You keep using this word 'kata'. But hings like MJER is not kata. It's waza. Tried and tested techniques from its founder. You dont deconstruct kata. Kata is the deconstruction of a waza. Spitting it into parts to understand it more.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklon View Post
    Hi Ken,

    I havent trained it for that many years, but i have done a lot of study and reading on the theoretical parts of the style, even on katas that are not part of my training.

    i understand that nukitsuke is not suppose to be the fatal cut, and that many kata situtations are not suppose to be practical, they are just exercises, however this is not my point, katas arenīt suppose to represent a 100% accurate situtation, you just take part of the kata and use it according to a real sittuation that you are facing.

    here are two examples of situations

    - the enemy in front of you is drawing his sword aiming at your leg, there is not enough time to cut him first so your best option is to block his low attack and cut him down.

    - second situation, exactly like the first one but instead he goes for your torso, you see his attack coming but you canīt block because at no point in your style you learned the proper technique for dealing with that sittuation, he cuts you first and proceed to kill you.

    thats the point, why learn to protect your leg, and not learn how to protect the rest of your body??

    Iīm aware that this technique exists in other styles, such as Suio-ryu, but I wounder why itīs not taught in MSE/MJER
    Simply because as MJER/ER are tried and set out waza. As Iwata Norikazu Hanshi holder of 'two' Tora no maki (Menkyo kaiden) explained, "If you want to change a waza you would have to kill someone". The waza is set, we dont change it. That is unless...... we cant do it anyway and maybe think we are being smart in doing it our own different way.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyaku View Post
    I read most of your posts and you really dont seems to know what you are talking about. You keep using this word 'kata'. But hings like MJER is not kata. It's waza. Tried and tested techniques from its founder. You dont deconstruct kata. Kata is the deconstruction of a waza. Spitting it into parts to understand it more.

    And I have the feeling you have no idea that the part with "..." was not my line, but a text of my previous chatter. But please continue with your impressions.
    That person even decided that those waza are worthless in a way, since they were not 'tested' today.
    You don't know if hitting with the tsuka is enough to do a damage to your opponent - was one of the points in here.
    But other than correcting me, you finally said something about nukitsuke and nukiuchi? Just asking
    Last edited by Derzis; 23rd March 2016 at 23:00.

  7. #35
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    PS hyaku, you deconstruct those waza and you will interpret them based on your fighting understanding. That's why the way a 3rd dan is doing a waza is not the same with the way a 8th dan is doing it. And by no means those waza are learnt to develop muscle memory and are 'not making sense from a situational standpoint' as it was said by the same person I was arguing with, but you failed to see when you quoted his same text on page 1. I bid you good bye

  8. #36
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    PPS Using the word 'waza' as non-japanese is a generalization as you learning 'budo' while practicing a martial art. You are learning a kata that is the reflection of a real fighting situation of old using technics that are making sense/expressing the spirit of the art - at least for MSR / MJER. Since iaijutsu became iaido, 'waza' is a word that can hide a reality you don't want to tell - you learn some 'waza' that are teaching you to act as assassin, or escaping prisoner, or all the bad stuff that you don't want to talk about. Sounds much better, and can make all the gentlemen with 'many years of training' say stupid things like : many kata situations are not suppose to be practical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    PPS Using the word 'waza' as non-japanese is a generalization as you learning 'budo' while practicing a martial art.
    Sorry but I dont really understand what you are trying to say. Non-Japanese learn Japanese terminology in practicing Budo. Few experienced practitioners use the word Martial Art in referring to anything Japanese. It's a very poor misleading translation. When I do seminars I refer to it as a Japanese cultural activity for immigration purposes as many dont understand the word Kobudo. Saying martial arts gives the wrong impression to many.

    If you do Seiteigata in Japan it's the one that is nearest to what is written in a book that wins a competition or passes a shodan shinsa. It has nothing to do with practicality. Just a method of learning Iaido so we can go on to Koryu. At least that's ZNKR's description of it. That where the description you mention comes from that you seem to think is stupid.

    The reason a Hachidan does waza better than a Sandan is because he is more experienced and has the ability to add his character to an already set configuration. Or in certain Koryu do a distinct variation of a waza.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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  11. #38
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    I was telling you that 'waza' is as popular and as general as 'budo' in western world. We give them attributes as we please - budo, the way of warrior when bu-do was most of the time the way of peacemaker/justiciar (a glimpse to what bu meant for the founder of the Shorin schools of Okinawan karate is not a wasted time) Waza is a technic and kata is the retainer/container of that said technic. But you decided to say that koryu IS waza. Your interpretation.
    The example with that Sensei is eloquent. He said (approximatively), "you have to kill a man to be able to change a waza". Right? If he was really meaning the entire kata, in this case MSR noto was a sacrilege for a MJER practitioner - he CHANGED the waza! !!!!!!!!! There are things that can be changed in a kata and things that CAN'T be changed. And he was pointing toward the efficiency of the technics (waza) that kata in koryu holds. You will be capable to change that technic if you come with something more efficient than what was before - it will never happen.
    Regarding the rest of your comment I have nothing to say because it is your understanding against mine. What means 'practicality' in a world where sword is an antiquity or a link to old history? I don't want the answer.

  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyaku View Post
    The reason a Hachidan does waza better than a Sandan is because he is more experienced and has the ability to add his character to an already set configuration. Or in certain Koryu do a distinct variation of a waza.
    The hachidan thinks what he is doing, the other just executes.

  13. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    ...If he was really meaning the entire kata, in this case MSR noto was a sacrilege for a MJER practitioner - he CHANGED the waza! ...And he was pointing toward the efficiency of the technics (waza) that kata in koryu holds.
    You are again demonstrating that you don't know what the term "waza" means in MJER. What a karate-ka might call a kata is not called a kata in MJER, it's a waza. For example, in Shito-ryu there is a kata called "Naihanchi Shodan" and in MJER there is a waza called "Juntō Sono Ichi."

    This thread is about MJER/MSR. What rank do you hold in either of these arts?
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    You are again demonstrating that you don't know what the term "waza" means in MJER. What a karate-ka might call a kata is not called a kata in MJER, it's a waza. For example, in Shito-ryu there is a kata called "Naihanchi Shodan" and in MJER there is a waza called "Juntō Sono Ichi."

    This thread is about MJER/MSR. What rank do you hold in either of these arts?
    What I said above. A fragment from a comment of Kishimoto Sensei:

    " During the 8th dan grading that took place in May I noticed that many people performed the Kata with great technical expertise that was lacking with the Kokoro of Iai. When this Kokoro does exist, the spirit of each and every Waza, including the individual components, is discernable, resulting in meaningful Iai. "

    You can read the entire article here:
    www.britishkendoassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Kishimoto-sensei_2.pd

    By the way in MSR is Koranto.
    Ranks means nothing. Especially in virtual.
    Last edited by Derzis; 24th March 2016 at 22:11.

  15. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    Ranks means nothing. Especially in virtual.
    Ranks mean a lot, especially in virtual. In person I can see if they walk the walk, but virtually all someone has is their rank/reputation. Someone could come along of course and lie about their rank, but e-budo is an old and well-established community, and most of the long-time members are well-known within their own communities with easily verifiable ranks.

    A rank of any sort tells me that someone has some direct experience with what they are talking about and may know something. A senior rank tells me they have long experience and I should pay attention and probably shut up if I don't have direct experience myself. No rank usually means they are parroting something they read, like you just did, or they are talking out of their ass.

    To take the devil's advocate position, I don't normally like to argue from authority, I prefer that over time people come to trust my opinions on their own merit. That could happen with you, but you're obviously not interested in establishing a relationship with the community, you're just here to argue and not learn anything.
    Neil Gendzwill
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  17. #43
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    No, I am not interested to establish a relationship with a community based on ranks, that's true. IF I want to learn something, I know where to go - and is not on a forum. I can agree or disagree with what is written. And I can write my opinion even if is against the trend. Example of opinion against the trend:
    - SEITEI katas are not just exercises to learn stick-oriented kendoka to hold a sword.
    - You learnt and understood a fighting system, you will know how to deal with day by day possible problem.

  18. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    The hachidan thinks what he is doing, the other just executes.
    Lol Oh really? Then I guess 50 years of repetition sometimes ten practices a week have been for nothing if I am still "thinking my way through".
    Hyakutake Colin

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    http://www.hyoho.com

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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzis View Post
    I was telling you that 'waza' is as popular and as general as 'budo' in western world. We give them attributes as we please - budo, the way of warrior when bu-do was most of the time the way of peacemaker/justiciar (a glimpse to what bu meant for the founder of the Shorin schools of Okinawan karate is not a wasted time) Waza is a technic and kata is the retainer/container of that said technic. But you decided to say that koryu IS waza. Your interpretation.
    The example with that Sensei is eloquent. He said (approximatively), "you have to kill a man to be able to change a waza". Right? If he was really meaning the entire kata, in this case MSR noto was a sacrilege for a MJER practitioner - he CHANGED the waza! !!!!!!!!! There are things that can be changed in a kata and things that CAN'T be changed. And he was pointing toward the efficiency of the technics (waza) that kata in koryu holds. You will be capable to change that technic if you come with something more efficient than what was before - it will never happen.
    Regarding the rest of your comment I have nothing to say because it is your understanding against mine. What means 'practicality' in a world where sword is an antiquity or a link to old history? I don't want the answer.
    The point is Ryu and the waza within do have 'grey area' that allows variation. This is why partly there are so many splits within groups and ryu. It can also be noted that high level Japanese teachers comments are that someone will do nukitsuke of 'A Sensei", the kiritsuke of (B Sensei) etc and mix it all up.

    But different ryu do have different guidelines as to the waza they show. The ryu I head is taught to never ever show the original waza in public but to work on and do a 'variations' for embu. We also bear in mind that no two situations would ever be the same. I dont see what noto has to do with any of this. It is now what could be deemed as a theatrical means of replacing a blade to do yet another kata/waza.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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