Doubt about Katame No Kata.

[Davi]

Hi, guys. I'm new at this forum and i have a doubt that really bothers me. I know that wrist locks, leg locks, neck cranks were banned from judo competition. But there are several evidences of them been used by judokas for instance, The essence of judo(Mifune uses some leg locks). My method of Judo(A lot of leg locks, neck cranks, spinal locks, a lot of arm locks i've never saw, etc...). But still we don't see any of these techniques in Katame no Kata(only ashi-garami). Why?? Thx since now.

[LGatling]

Katame no kata (pinning forms) was outlined in the Kodokan in 1887 - when Kano shihan was only 27. It was meant to address some of the major ground techniques, but not everything, and primarily for techniques useful in randori (free judo sparring); in fact Katame no kata and Nage no kata (throwing forms) are collectively called Randori no Kata (randori form). There are techniques that can be used in randori but not in competition. There are also techniques that are taught but never used in randori or compeition (shiai). Some are useful for self defense but simply too dangerous for normal practice so are more tightly controlled. There are other techniques in the earliest judo books that you won't see in those later books - finger grips, wrist controls, etc. Kano shihan's goal was to get judo accepted across the Japanese school system for children. In order to do so he dropped many techniques that the Ministry of Education thought possibly harmful to young bodies. In the 1930's and 1940's judo changed again, it's basic training adopting kicks, punches, and counters that look more like modern karate than modern judo. Grappling only came much later. Then the Occupation ban of public facility budo instruction had both judo and kendo scrambling to 'de-militarize' their curricula, leading to the sports judo of today and the more short-lived 'pliant staff competition'.

[Davi]

Thank you so much. You are the first person that gives me a good answer. Can i ask you another question? Why didn't they keep these techniques on the Gokyo and just "banned" them as they did with Ashi Garami and Kani Basami ?

[LGatling]

Thank you so much. You are the first person that gives me a good answer. Can i ask you another question? Why didn't they keep these techniques on the Gokyo and just "banned" them as they did with Ashi Garami and Kani Basami ?

The original Gokyo no waza (five techniques) were set in 1895 but modified significantly afterwards to remove some of those dangerous techniques you ask about and substitute others. This was done in Kano shihan's lifetime, around the time that judo was allowed into all public schools by the Ministry of Education (budo training later became mandatory for all able bodied boys, but that's another story). Today the Kodokan is very loath to change directly any of the kata associated with Kano shihan, as he wrote about them and they remain the canonical judo kata, but much of the actual riai (reason / rationale) is lost on modern judoka. Did you know that Kano wrote that Kime no Kata represents the very core of judo? That he meant Ju no Kata as a rapid movement attack and defense kata instead of the slow dance it has become? There has only been two new established since his death, namely Joshi Goshin-ho (Female Self-Defense Methods) and Kodokan Goshinjutsu (Kodokan Self Defense Techniques). The former is almost forgotten, and the latter is somewhat controversial and not well understood, as its techniques lend themselves to aikido and jujutsu more than modern sports judo. Incidentally note the sequence of the Gokyo no Waza - it seems odd to many folks. The logical thread is that it was actually a training method for uke's breakfalls - going from easy to very advanced, but is seldom used that way today, while giving tori a review of a range of techniques. Lance Gatling

[Davi]

So, let me see if i got it. Basically Shihan Kano made the Randori no Kata to be accepted into the schools but the old techniques were still being taught and he was in favor of this kinda thing. Then the techniques were abandoned because of sport judo and became a taboo? Is that what you meant or i got it wrong?

[LGatling]

So, let me see if i got it. Basically Shihan Kano made the Randori no Kata to be accepted into the schools but the old techniques were still being taught and he was in favor of this kinda thing. Then the techniques were abandoned because of sport judo and became a taboo? Is that what you meant or i got it wrong?

No, originally Randori no Kata was apparently an intermediate step developed to show the major techniques and rationalize them between multiple jujutsu schools. I wrote this entry that addresses it in Joe Svinth's 'Martial Arts of the World.'

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=P...20kata&f=false

Note that even then there were other, more dangerous randori techniques still taught and available, but having a common curriculum meant that Kano as the jujutsu group chair could present a unified front to present to the Ministry of Education, as the entire group accepted Kano's proposal for Randori no Kata. The attempt to coordinate a combatives kata, for which Kano offered what is today the Kodokan Kime no Kata (which Kano called the basis of all judo!) was a bust - the schools varied much more, some punched and kicked a lot, some wanted different or no weapons, and had hundreds of years of history and pride to back their offerings.

Those more dangerous techniques were eliminated over time in order to get judo accepted into the school system. But you see the remaining leglocks in the kata only - they are not used in randori or competition.

Other legitimate judo techniques such as double leg takedowns have more recently been banned (or highly restricted - you can't directly attack the legs but can after an engagement....).

So, one way to think of it is:
- judo has a large number of formal techniques, and tons of informal techniques and modified techniques. This traditionally includes kicks, strikes, finger and wrist (very old) techniques. These can be practiced but seldom are outside kata or the occasional self defense drills.
- A smaller number can be used in randori.
- And an even smaller number can be used in competitions.
- Juniors are further restricted in competition, can't use chokes and joint locks.

Don't worry about it too much - no one understands this completely today - while some details are known, other historic details have been lost (specific dates and full original curricula, logic, alternatives considered).

L Gatling

[Davi]

Now i got it. It fells like there is a "fog" at some point of Judo History. Thx.

[LGatling]

Now i got it. It fells like there is a "fog" at some point of Judo History. Thx.

There is a lot of fog around judo, a surprising amount at times. Some is intentional, most is self inflicted or because of poor modern reference, but even the Japanese source books are not at all clear. I have around 50 prewar instruction manuals (should really count sometime), some are really poor, others are brilliant, sometimes none agree on much of anything other than the basic techniques. The entire approaches range from one on one to mass formation training.

Part of that was that the Kodokan was run by guys who did judo. Kano shihan was all over the place, writing about judo but the technical guys didn't write more than a handful of books, typically for which he wrote the forewords and or calligraphy.

And most of what you're asking about was background noise, thought not typically worth writing about. Techniques were included and excluded from different peoples' books at different times. Also there were people (actually, all men) coming into judo from other jujutsu or martial arts traditions, each free at the time to say 'my favorite double overhand wrist cruncher is part of judo' and no one would really say much about that as judo was pretty much run as a Big Tent intent to get everyone to play 'judo' first, and whatever next. That went on for some 20 years, during very formative years, but the result would be some unread (today) article in a magazine or an obscure book.

Every few years someone would publish a new 'New Judo Text' or instruction manual; sometimes it's difficult to see what triggered it being new, a new idea or an external force or policy. Pre- and post-war was certainly clearly 'new' and different.

Another generation or two, and the old jujutsu schools almost disappeared. The collective that Kano organized absorbed pretty much everything, so the Kodokan techniques became the approved solution (although different schools had some local jujutsu taught until the 1940's).

L Gatling

[Davi]

Interesting. This kind of thing always bring that old discussion about Judo being a martial art or just a sport. What's your opinion? And about these books you mentioned, which one you would say that have "legitimate" Judo banned techniques? What do you think about Kawaishi method? I just started to practice Judo and i love to study History. Sorry if i'm being inconvenient with all those questions.

[DustyMars]

Most of us back in the days (1950’s and 1960’s) learned a lot more techniques that the published Gokyo no waza. Some of them were from the old jujitsu book, but when training for shiai those were not included in the training schedule. Given the propensity for us to only practice our tokuiwaza or a few techniques we were comfortable with in competition, the banned ones we just not worth the time and effort.

My experience in Judo during those earlier days was completely different than it is today. We used to have kohaku shiai where anything goes and finishing with some seeping blood was common place. It was the after Judo became more popular, outside the Far East, that the rule makes changed our art.

[LGatling]

That's often the point - players ask, if the techniques aren't allowed in competition, why bother? so the technical curriculum withers. In a generation or two, entire portions can essentially disappear.

Also, a lot of folks don't know the origins of US military judo, with the special Strategic Air Command (SAC) combatives training program in the Kodokan, plus individuals from a range of judo dojo across Japan. It was meant to be practical and rough, and it was.

I recently contacted the editor of Hiden magazine about it, and they plan a story on the SAC program and its role in the spread of Japanese martial arts across the world post-WWII.

NBK

Most of us back in the days (1950’s and 1960’s) learned a lot more techniques that the published Gokyo no waza. Some of them were from the old jujitsu book, but when training for shiai those were not included in the training schedule. Given the propensity for us to only practice our tokuiwaza or a few techniques we were comfortable with in competition, the banned ones we just not worth the time and effort.

My experience in Judo during those earlier days was completely different than it is today. We used to have kohaku shiai where anything goes and finishing with some seeping blood was common place. It was the after Judo became more popular, outside the Far East, that the rule makes changed our art.

[El Lobo Mas Solitario]

really informative. thanks.

[Kevin73]

No, originally Randori no Kata was apparently an intermediate step developed to show the major techniques and rationalize them between multiple jujutsu schools. I wrote this entry that addresses it in Joe Svinth's 'Martial Arts of the World.'

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=P...20kata&f=false

Note that even then there were other, more dangerous randori techniques still taught and available, but having a common curriculum meant that Kano as the jujutsu group chair could present a unified front to present to the Ministry of Education, as the entire group accepted Kano's proposal for Randori no Kata. The attempt to coordinate a combatives kata, for which Kano offered what is today the Kodokan Kime no Kata (which Kano called the basis of all judo!) was a bust - the schools varied much more, some punched and kicked a lot, some wanted different or no weapons, and had hundreds of years of history and pride to back their offerings.

Those more dangerous techniques were eliminated over time in order to get judo accepted into the school system. But you see the remaining leglocks in the kata only - they are not used in randori or competition.

Other legitimate judo techniques such as double leg takedowns have more recently been banned (or highly restricted - you can't directly attack the legs but can after an engagement....).

So, one way to think of it is:
- judo has a large number of formal techniques, and tons of informal techniques and modified techniques. This traditionally includes kicks, strikes, finger and wrist (very old) techniques. These can be practiced but seldom are outside kata or the occasional self defense drills.
- A smaller number can be used in randori.
- And an even smaller number can be used in competitions.
- Juniors are further restricted in competition, can't use chokes and joint locks.

Don't worry about it too much - no one understands this completely today - while some details are known, other historic details have been lost (specific dates and full original curricula, logic, alternatives considered).

L Gatling

I have read that the double leg takedowns were inspired by western wrestling and incorporated into the system. I have also heard that this is why they were later removed from competition. You had western wrestlers with no real Judo training winning competitions using their takedowns. The same went for certain grips favored by other countries that started to win competitions.

Any truth to that? The idea that many rule changes came about to give japanese judoka an advantage in competitions?

[LGatling]

I have read that the double leg takedowns were inspired by western wrestling and incorporated into the system. I have also heard that this is why they were later removed from competition. You had western wrestlers with no real Judo training winning competitions using their takedowns. The same went for certain grips favored by other countries that started to win competitions. Any truth to that? The idea that many rule changes came about to give japanese judoka an advantage in competitions?

I have never read that double leg takedowns were inspired by Western wrestling. Kano shihan did write about one strong gent who was really giving him trouble in randori. He read a book on Western wrestling in one of the earliest libraries in Japan and spotted what judo calls 'kata-guruma', the shoulder wheel, and used that to defeat his opponent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBSJ...has_verified=1 Japan is only one of over a hundred countries in the International Judo Federation, and is politically pretty weak, actually, so the recent changes to outlaw direct attacks against the legs (they are still allowed as follow up attacks, but the initial attack cannot be a feint, but rather a serious attack) were not just because of the Japanese desire, but that of many countries concerned about the increasing use of shooting in for double leg takedowns. Traditionalists seem mostly in favor; others point out it's a legitimate part of judo and should be allowed. Kano shihan's writings indicate that the core of judo was in the standing throwing techniques. Certainly the elimination favors more traditional judo, and the Japanese have done well because of that. I competed yesterday in a high dan competition, and I thought I could still see high grade judoka struggling not to grab their opponent's legs - it is now a disqualification. But a couple of years in and people have pretty much gotten use to it - unless that's all they can do. And if you've ever fought a skilled wrestler, some can be so fast it's amazing. Of course, that's with years of drills. L Gatling

[CEB]

The only Judo throw I ever heard was based on Wrestling was O-Goshi (Hip Toss) but I seriously doubt it. The hip toss is found in practically all forms of grappling. Glutius Maximus is the largestest muscle in the body. However Wrestling did steal Seionage from Judo. Old old school wrestlers in the US will still refer to it in the very policitically incorrect name, the "Jap Whizzer Special".