Using titles and calling people "Sensei"

[pboylan]

I've seen Japanese titles and honorifics used and abused so badly around the internet and in person that I finally wrote a blog post about it. A lot of people outside Japan just don't understand this stuff. It's not their fault though. It's the fault of those of us who do understand it and don't make it clear. So here is my first broadside in the effort to improve budo knowledge and etiquette in the use of honorifics and titles. Any comments or suggestions?

http://budobum.blogspot.com/2014/06/...do-titles.html

[gendzwil]

You're probably preaching to the choir Peter, I doubt anyone who reads your blog doesn't already know this stuff.

Sincerely,

Kyoshi-doshi Neil-sensei-san hoopty-dan

[P Goldsbury]

Hello Peter,

I think the only issue here would concern the extent to which those outside Japan who are practicing Japanese martial arts believe that they need to adapt Japanese practice to fulfill perceived needs in their own dojos. The use of the term sempai and kohai is an example. In my experience here, the use of the term is highly specific and restricted, but in some dojos overseas it seems to be a title just short of sensei. There are also invented title like 研修生 (kenshuusei), that I have never encountered here.

Best wishes,

PAG

[hyaku]

My favorite just has to be Kaiso.

[LGatling]

'.... As is, I should add, any doctor and any politician. Do you really think being lumped in the same category as politicians is all that wonderful?'

a nicely turned phrase that puts it in perspective.

L Gatling

[len mccoy]

When I was in Kyokushinkai in the 1980's Shigeru Oyama Sensei who surely understood Japanese language and etiquette set up a system where 2nd kyu through first dan were called Sempai Smith and second dan to I think 5th dan were called Sensei Smith above that was called Shihan Smith. Of course Shigeru Oyama was referred to as Seiko Shihan. All of this I am lead to believe over the years is incorrect Japanese syntax for titles and with the exception of sensei not titles spoken in Japanese for the most part. At the same time they insisted on correct pronunciation of Japanese words and I definitely remember my teacher talking about other people incorrectly pronouncing shuto. As apoint of clarification my teacher went to New York several times a month to train with Seiko Shihan but I never met him. Now I guess one of my points would be that very high ranking talented Japanese martial artists are at least partially responsible for the strange titles used in America. But I did promise a question. Are these strange titles and syntax used in Kyokushinkai in Japan? How about other countries, say Great Britain or Australia? I was on Okinawa for six moths but studied Shorin ryu there not Kyokushinkai. Any help is appreciated.
Respectfully,
Len McCoy

[gendzwil]

Maybe Oyama was just trying to mesh with the North American view that titles are static things and not relational?

In the kendo world whether or not I get called sensei depends on who I am talking to. People who are junior to me who don't know me very well will usually call me sensei if they are aware of my rank. People in my own club usually just say Neil which is what I prefer. People senior to me will say Neil unless they are referring to me in front of others in which case I get Neil-sensei or Gendzwill-sensei.

It's also roughly co-related to rank in that at yondan you start getting it occasionally and by rokudan it's relatively consistent. Some people are always sensei to everyone. I don't ever hear someone who is hanshi not referred to as X-sensei, either directly or indirectly. Some people who are lower than yondan and running a club are referred to by their students as sensei, I guess that's fundamentally OK but depending on the personality of the person it can be a little off-putting.

Interestingly enough, when I was yondan I was not comfortable at all with being called sensei, and now I'm OK with it. This has been the experience of most of my friends who have been going through the ranks in similar time-frame to me. In fact I will get mildly annoyed if it's not used in formal communication, say from a junior in a letter in my capacity with CKF. It's not really an ego thing, it's more "this person should know the etiquette".