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Thread: Aiki as a concept- why all the fuss?

  1. #151
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    The first post explains the illogical reasoning of the "qualifications" and "qualifications for comparison" argument for all parties concerned.
    And also addresses the understanding of restrictions on public disclosure by many parties.
    Further discussion fleshed that out
    None of which should engender any animus as it recognizes all sides standards and argument points. I didn't say "talking points" because they're was little discussion, only arguing and personal attacks.
    And still no discussion of aiki. There never has been and there never will be.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavinslater View Post
    This thread starts off basically putting Daito Ryu practioners in the 'dont know what they are talking about' category.
    Gavin
    Interesting. That was established years ago here by Daito ryu practitioners themselves with their "deep initiation qualifications" standard. None of whom meet their own standard. Those who do, have routinely contradicted their views. Peter, Chris Li, Mark, Cady and myself have pointed out various quotes and other problems with that logic working within Daito ryu and also in them now setting a standard by which they cannot talk about anyone else's art either.
    This is not a condemnation of any one party, but rather a statement about why these standards applied here have left no discussion possible.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    The first post explains the illogical reasoning of the "qualifications" and "qualifications for comparison" argument for all parties concerned.
    And also addresses the understanding of restrictions on public disclosure by many parties.
    Further discussion fleshed that out
    None of which should engender any animus as it recognizes all sides standards and argument points. I didn't say "talking points" because they're was little discussion, only arguing and personal attacks.
    And still no discussion of aiki. There never has been and there never will be.
    First of all, you may have expressed your own opinion of the "reasoning of the 'qualifications'" but if you believe that this is an "explanation" than there can be no civil discussion to follow anyway, because you've already told everyone what they think.

    Secondly, you set this thread up as a meta-discussion in the first place. There have been some more-or-less productive discussions about what Aiki is on other forums. The posts on this sub-forum have been generally provocative to folks who don't like application of the term "aiki" to general assortments of neuromuscular conditioning and combative principles, by people who practice outside of liegitimate lineages.

  4. #154
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    Most everyone I know of who practices what you are describing came from and still practices within your so called "legitimate" lineages. Personally, I practice with Aikido shihan and Daito ryu teachers and students as well as a wide range of koryu people.

    Then again.. I will accept your inability to discuss your own arts or what these other people are doing as you have no deep initiation in either.
    Which brings up another long related debate.
    Who gave who legitimacy to practice what... when all this stuff was invented?
    In your case...
    What is a "general affairs director "of a ko ryu?
    No "legitimate" koryu I know of ever heard of such a thing.
    Who invents more and more makimono as they go along?


    Leaders and followers have interesting, albeit different, mindsets.
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 24th October 2014 at 17:42.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  5. #155
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    Edit:
    Mind you I have no vested interest in questioning the legitimacy to these "generalized neuromuscular and martial concepts as aiki." It's just that anyone training under a man who invented an art in the 60's, named it one thing, called himself a soke, gave rank in it for 35 years and then switched and gave rank in something different that his father never claimed to be soke of... leaves a reasonable man to ask why on earth you would bring up legitimacy in a discussion of aiki that exists in other truly legitimate koryu? In that vein, if we are talking historical perspectives in a thread: many others are more "legitimate" in what they said and did.
    I don't care either way, but gees....
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 24th October 2014 at 18:42.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    why on earth you would bring up legitimacy in a discussion of aiki that exists in other truly legitimate koryu?
    What are these legtimate koryu where aiki exists? Just to be clear, when we talk about these other systems, we are talking about concepts that could-be-might-be-somewhat similar to what people in Aiki arts call "aiki," but go by different names, have different purposes, and are so tightly integrated into those koryu that it is specious to call them "Aiki," right? We still haven't found any older systems that use the term aiki, have we? I'm actually curious about this one.

  7. #157
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    There are few aiki arts, Cliff. Aikido is one of them, so is Yanagi ryu.
    Your art is Daito ryu jujutsu. Your unproved Koryu changed its scrolls and name in the twentieth century adding aiki to it. Your self proclaimed "General affairs secretary" stated often that he just taught jujutsu to some and aiki to others.
    So now we have the damning comments even in the ryu. Teachers of the more aiki oriented branches having a low opinion of a certain very famous Daito ryu teacher. Openly stating..."He has no aiki"
    I have yet to meet or hear of anyone outside of his branch who thinks he does.
    But, then you had Sagawa, stating no one had aiki but him... Blah blah. Who cares.
    Now No koryu has aiki like Daito ryu. Aikido shouldn't be allowed to use the name aiki...

    I have heard all of this before, Cliff. "Only Daito ryu has aiki." Do you know how many times I have read or heard this?
    Thankfully almost none of your top teachers agree with you either
    In a similar vein to what Peter said to Nathan. I will say: That's fine. I understand what you are saying. I don't agree with you either.
    All I see is otherwise good intentioned people finding more ways to be upset over something. Aiki really should unite us rather than divide us. As Kiyama one said. "You can't give someone aiki. If they get it at all, it is only through shugyo. Then it is theirs."
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 25th October 2014 at 00:34.
    Dan
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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    Mark
    I am still trying to get that picture of DR's Kawabe, doing the ICMA Zan Zhuang (stake-standing) in a foot of snow.
    I also am considering posting the breath work in Daito ryu's aiki-in-yo-ho that was publicly offered by Tokimune, and is taught to white belts in one line of DR under Okabayashi and place it in a post showing the exact same method being taught throughout Asia.

    One mans junk...is another mans treasure
    One arts secrets...are another arts everyday practice.
    That pic of DR's Kawabe would be neat to see. And besides a very few handful of people here, some of whom seem to wantonly ignore the request for an apology (*shrug* says more about their character than mine), I think many would be interested in reading about the publicly offered breath work of Tokimune.

  9. #159
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    Kwabe's breath work and "stake standing," Tokimune's breathwork, and solo drills, Sagawa's exercises, Okomotos push hand drill, Horikawas breath work, share much in common with Sho-Sho ryu's breathwork conditioning for atemi, the esoteric training offered at Katori and Kashima jingu (as noted by the founder of Shinto ryu) Yagyu Shingon ryu's conditioning, Goju ryu's conditioning, Wado ryu's solo training drills ( meant to generate Aiki.....are all Chinese.
    The Asian arts share many common attributes for conditioning the body to create aiki. The actual execution has different flavors, but it is all based on yin/ yang.
    Various martial artists have tried to perpetuate this idea that their art is unique in all the world, doesn't have solo training, stating they invented aiki, etc. etc. exposes a rather profound lack of education. From Acala Vidya raja to Fudo Myo-o, from Takuan to Shirata ( all but quoting him) the understanding of esoteric training to achieve an immovable body that created rapid and free movement, powerful, connected center driven movement is foundational to them.

    Again, I am at a seminar as I write this having spent the evening with variouss MA teachers. Once again being shown and indoor solo training exercise out of an Indonesian family art. Guess what it is meant to produce ? Immovable, Dantian based movement that allows you to them go and jump and rapidly move with a tank like body. Then ? Create yin and yang to make sticky disruptive, controlling arm movements. Any of this sounding familiar?
    How about this from the taiji classics:
    "Adhesion caused by movement
    Movement only by yin/yang
    This is the true comprehension of energy. "

    And so it goes.
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 25th October 2014 at 16:37.

  10. #160
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    To Cliff.
    Please address posts #154, #155; which were direct questions to you.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVMark View Post
    That pic of DR's Kawabe would be neat to see. And besides a very few handful of people here, some of whom seem to wantonly ignore the request for an apology (*shrug* says more about their character than mine), I think many would be interested in reading about the publicly offered breath work of Tokimune.
    I wonder if Dan is not making a confusion between individuals here. It is true that there is a video on Daito-ryu breathing method available on Youtube but this video is not from Takeda Tokimune Sensei but from the probably oldest student of Tokimune Sensei who sadly passed away a couple of weeks ago.

    Since what is shown was probably learnt from Tokimune Sensei, the video is indeed of great value.

    My apologies to Dan if there is indeed a public video made by Tokimune Sensei or any kind of instruction in a written form available to the public.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raff View Post
    I wonder if Dan is not making a confusion between individuals here. It is true that there is a video on Daito-ryu breathing method available on Youtube but this video is not from Takeda Tokimune Sensei but from the probably oldest student of Tokimune Sensei who sadly passed away a couple of weeks ago.

    Since what is shown was probably learnt from Tokimune Sensei, the video is indeed of great value.

    My apologies to Dan if there is indeed a public video made by Tokimune Sensei or any kind of instruction in a written form available to the public.
    There's a short passage from Tokimune about breath training that appears here.

    Best,

    Chris

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    BTW, your assertions about yin and yang as used in DR are off the mark. It is an oral teaching and you are not aware of its meaning in DR.Even referring to akido, Your teaching of yin and yang as used by Henry Kono (from ueshiba) is also different. You are simply not aware of what Henry is doing in relation to this, or how Ueshiba transmitted this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muden View Post
    Your teaching of yin and yang as used by Henry Kono (from ueshiba) is also different. You are simply not aware of what Henry is doing in relation to this, or how Ueshiba transmitted this.
    So far as I'm aware, Dan has never taught anything done by Henry Kono. He does quote a remark made to Kono by Ueshiba, but that's a somewhat different matter. Kono has his own take on what Ueshiba meant, which is fine, folks are free to try both approaches and decide for themselves what they think.

    Best,

    Chris

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by muden View Post
    BTW, your assertions about yin and yang as used in DR are off the mark. It is an oral teaching and you are not aware of its meaning in DR.Even referring to akido,
    I hesitate to state my opinions as to what Dan is or isn't aware of, and I have talked and trained with him regularly over a number of years. I should think that you would be even more hesitant to make such statements based on your very limited exposure.

    Be that as it may. What if you argued against the assertions themselves? If you think that your understanding is different than state what that understanding is and why it's different and let the arguments speak for themselves rather than involving the personalities making the arguments.

    Best,

    Chris

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