Aiki as a concept- why all the fuss?

[cxt]

Koshu

Once again..."proof" is not available on-line.

"Burden of proof is largely a western concept"

Sorry, but that is pure spin.

MODERATOR EDIT. No, it is not 'pure spin'. You are clearly exaggerating here. The concept of logical proof began with the Greeks and was especially codified by Aristotle in a work called Organon. There is also some evidence that the Mohists in China discussed some of these logical issues, but Mert's qualification "largely" is accurate.

"billions of people who can relate to something that westerners can't"

Pretty racist of you dude----asserting that there is something inherent--perhaps at the genetic level???---- that would prevent a round eye from being able to "relate" to something.
If I were to suggest that "Asians" couldn't "relate" to something, could not grasp something BECAUSE they were not "western" people would quite rightly come unglued.

MODERATOR EDIT. Racist is a very loaded term, as is 'round eye' and to call someone racist breaks the rules of this forum. If it happens again, the poster will be banned.

Besides--if that is true, then perhaps that is why you can't present data--if round eyes can't "relate" to it then how can they possible learn it and use it?????

Or to look at it another way---if "billions of people"--Asians in this context--can "relate" in ways westerners can't--then why are there so few people of Ueshiba's, Takeda etc. level of abilities?

Take the CMA--vast population, they are extremely old, and over the centuries extremely large populations of students---and yet so very, very, very, few people that became "known" for their IP abilities. And they are Asians to boot
Clearly something is rotten in Denmark in terms of IP and its level teachability in the normal sense of the word.

"kuzushi....power gets negated.....demonstration of ki at work"

Now your shifting the entire basis of the argument......recall that my objection was to:

"drops you at the slightest contact, makes you stick to the tori, impairs your breathing, makes you nauseous, freezes/lock up your body"

Which as I have been saying all along is a big part of the problem---people not defining precisely what they mean by IP/ki in specific discussions.

NOW, you are using a person able to resist being throwing as an example IP/ki. Which is not where we started.

[Cliff Judge]

Well it would be interesting to be able to record a person's whoel nervous system while they are performing full-body movement, even more interesting if you could record two people simultaneously while martial techniques were being performed. We can't do that yet, but we're getting better at reading the brain under controlled circumstances.

Interestingly, the results so far when we've looked under the hood are pretty disturbing. It looks more and more like consciousness and free will don't actually exist.

[cxt]

Cliff

"looked under the hood are pretty disturbing........looks more and more like consciousness and free will don't actually exist."

"shudder"

[Cady Goldfield]

Well, we are the product of gazillions of microorganisms, including our own genes. We're kind of a thinking gene-mobile, apparently, with the variations on human behaviors and even for how we think being driven by those rascally little drivers. Even gut bacteria are thought to affect how we think! May as well just go along for the ride...

[Koshu]

Chris T., et al;

I stepped into the discussion to simply identify a few matter-of-fact points that help explain, and offer straightforward ways to resolve differences of opinion. I stand by what I've written as it is. Happy to repeat myself and offer up a first-hand anecdote below.

This is a public forum. Professional peers of mine read what I write online because I'm fairly open about my interest in and practice of martial and healing arts. If they just want information about these things, I refer them to e-Budo, Aikiweb and the Aikido Sangenkai website in particular. For first-hand verification regarding credibility, I refer them to my Hakkoryu instructor, Dan, Sam Chin, and Mike Sigman, for example, because they do have the ability to demonstrate internal skills (my teacher's shiatsu is top rate as well, and a lot of professionals sit at the computer way too long, so getting treated is an extra bonus for going to the source).

If one of my peers were to read this thread, for example (and I'm pretty sure one or more of them are), it makes sense that he/she would ask me if what Dan's saying here, and I and others are corroborating, is true. Well, it just so happens that Dan will be here in December. A couple said peers have expressed interest in meeting Dan and getting proof first hand. Pretty simple. Same as it was, again, for the Daito-ryu certified instructors and other martial artists we discussed earlier. All the back-and-forth banter on the Internet is confusing to people because it's an abstraction of something that is inherently physical in nature.

Sam Chin visited Hawaii in 2011. We were doing a standing drill, and my surgically repaired knee was hurting. He identified the problem as an imbalance between the yin and yang surfaces and meridians of the leg, and suggested I work on drawing ki/qi in the nominal manner assigned to the meridians (e.g. down urinary bladder and up kidney, which forms dual macrocosmic orbits that helps integrate the lower body to the upper body, vs. isolating muscle groups as I'd been taught in conventional physical therapy for the knee) to help stabilize the knee. This syncs up with the traditional medicine theory utilized in Hakkoryu, and has an analogue in Dan's model. I tried this a few times, Sam physically monitored what I was doing, and offered corrections that helped me fine tune my approach. I asked him if I could share this information with others, since many people have bad knees. He readily said "yes", qualifying, "But this information is useless by itself. The secrets protect themselves."

As I stated in my previous post, if someone doesn't have hands-on experience regarding what we're discussing, then there's really nothing else to write or talk about that can be productive. A restaurant (internal power adept of choice) is raved about on Yelp (e-Budo). The secret sauce (internal training methodology) is cited as a key difference-maker between this restaurant and others (conventional martial arts training). How do people determine if said restaurant and sauce are all they're cracked up to be? They go to the restaurant, taste the sauce, then they have something meaningful to further discuss/debate online with others.

Anyway, that seems to be a fitting parting shot. Nothing more to add.

[cxt]

Koshu

"helped explain in straightforward ways"

How exactly did you do that? you were talking about how IP can "drop you at the slightest contact, makes you stick to the tori, impairs your breathing, makes you nauseous, freezes/locks up your body>"

Did you explain how any of that is done??

"peers expressed an interest in meeting Dan"

Don't know what good that would do, according to YOU, "westerners" don't have the ability to "relate" to IP--so again according to YOU, how could a round eye understand it, much less teach it?

(although if asked I would be the first person to direct people to Dan and several other people)

"all the back and forth on the internet is confusing'

I'm sure it is, what with people running around making weird claims on-line....such as being able to "drop people with the slightest contact" and being able to "blur" peoples vision with IP.

"they go to the restaurant and taste the sauce, then they might have something meaningful to further the debate"

Pretty lame dude......YOU chose to make weird claims on-line......and when those claims are questioned you try to weasel out of it by saying people need to come to the "restaurant" and try the "sauce" first hand.

Sure like I or anybody else is going take off work, buy a plane ticket, fly out to wherever you are located, check into a hotel, spend a couple of days tracking you down.....and when you really can't "blur my vision"---using IP as per the claims you made. Whom is going to give me my money and time back???

You going to make good on my losses are you?

Like I have told various people over the years, its the marketing claims that get folks into trouble.

You start making spurious claims in a public forum and you should expect to have those claims questioned........and not being able to answer direct questions/observations from informed people is on you not me.
MODERATOR EDIT: Nothing is added to this discussion by calling the claims 'spurious'. The claims can be questioned, certainly, which is what you are doing, but whether the claims are spurious or not is the whole issue.

[WVMark]

Koshu

"helped explain in straightforward ways"

How exactly did you do that? you were talking about how IP can "drop you at the slightest contact, makes you stick to the tori, impairs your breathing, makes you nauseous, freezes/locks up your body>"

Did you explain how any of that is done??

"peers expressed an interest in meeting Dan"

Don't know what good that would do, according to YOU, "westerners" don't have the ability to "relate" to IP--so again according to YOU, how could a round eye understand it, much less teach it?

(although if asked I would be the first person to direct people to Dan and several other people)

"all the back and forth on the internet is confusing'

I'm sure it is, what with people running around making weird claims on-line....such as being able to "drop people with the slightest contact" and being able to "blur" peoples vision with IP.

"they go to the restaurant and taste the sauce, then they might have something meaningful to further the debate"

Pretty lame dude......YOU chose to make weird claims on-line......and when those claims are questioned you try to weasel out of it by saying people need to come to the "restaurant" and try the "sauce" first hand.

Sure like I or anybody else is going take off work, buy a plane ticket, fly out to wherever you are located, check into a hotel, spend a couple of days tracking you down.....and when you really can't "blur my vision"---using IP as per the claims you made. Whom is going to give me my money and time back???

You going to make good on my losses are you?

Like I have told various people over the years, its the marketing claims that get folks into trouble.

You start making spurious claims in a public forum and you should expect to have those claims questioned........and not being able to answer direct questions/observations from informed people is on you not me.

Could you please refrain from the character attacks and stick to the topic? "you try to weasel out of it" is a character attack. You're trying to degrade his character because your "skepticism" hasn't been met to *your* expectations. Meanwhile, thousands of other martial artists chose to do exactly what Mert suggested. Skepticism is valid and healthy up to a certain point. And burden of proof can be placed upon a small number of individuals who post claims online. However, this is not the case here. Burden of proof has been met by men with long training histories and experiences that are solid. If you're going to be skeptical, you're being skeptical of a whole host of martial artists with very solid, reputable training experiences ranging from aikido to Daito ryu to karate to judo to koryu to CMAs.

The answer to "Why not just let go?" after the IP/Aiki seminar. "Well, I couldn't." All my grabs became attraction points, Yin and Yang (the 2 kis from the headliner quote) were made manifest and that's all she wrote. My hands were glued to the instructor and I could not, for the life of me, get them off of him. And I tried. Never have I had that happen. Just, stuck to nage and then tossed like a pie in the oven. Now, go back and look at those photos, look at the waza O'Sensei is doing, look at the waza Saito is doing. Why can't the uke let go? What are we doing? What do we need to do?

Some can Doubt all they want... Question it ad infinitum....I did and found out when I experianced it for myself that I was a ignorant fool.

I have felt it and and not one Martial Artist in my 35 years of experience has/had the kind of Aiki Mr. Harden has...

Bill Gleason, when asked if what the IP/aiki training they were doing was related to aikido ...

This is aiki!

Thank you, I never thought that I would feel Ueshiba Sensei’s power again. What you are doing is very important. Don’t stop. No matter what they say.

Regarding Yamaguchi

Let there be no mistake in what I am saying -- he was incredibly good. One of the most remarkable things I ever saw him do was playing with a senior of mine at Kuwamori Dojo, Oliveri-san, a massively strong Italian former judoka. They'd started out with kokyu-ho, and when he strove to grab and grapple, Yamaguchi sensei lay on top of him, his back to him, and every time the big Italian tried to escape or even choke him, Yamaguchi sensei, laughing, would read his intention through his back muscles, and just shift his weight and balance. The Italian judoka couldn't escape, couldn't counter, and he eventually tapped out, pinned by a man who had his back to him!

You want to call BS on Yamaguchi or Amdur?

You can also ask people like Chris Li, George Ledyard, Allen Beebe, Howard Popkin, Rob Liberti, Marc Abrams, Gary Welborn, Greg Steckel, etc and a whole number of people outside the US for their views. All of these people have solid training histories. None of them catered to the "aiki" BS of no-touch throws. It's to a point now where one can only be skeptical if one purposefully chooses to ignore reputable martial artist's experiences and views.

[Koshu]

I'm out, Chris. Have a nice day.

Also, check your paraphrasing of what I've said: it's not accurate in a few instances, e.g.: 1) I've been discussing my first-hand takes on others' skills, not my own; and 2) I've stated from my first post in this thread that claims are validated in the first person, so there's nothing to "weasel out of". I won't be rejoining this thread unless there's a topic-switch of interest, so readers are cautioned to QA further third-party representations of what I've written against what I actually wrote.

Mark -- I'm a compliance officer, so character attacks come with the territory.

[Cady Goldfield]

Once again, REFRAIN from overstepping the rules that have been set forth for the forums. If you can't word your posts in a manner that is respectful, then please refrain from posting altogether. Any future personal attacks, denigrating language and mocking will be edited out of posts and the individual(s) responsible will be invited to leave the forum.

Anyone who has doubts about the existence and efficacy of IP and aiki, should simply get out and experience it hands-on with one or more of the people who've been noted as having and teaching them. Most of them post their seminars publicly. One of the main reasons why straight explanations are not forthcoming, is the nature of the "requests" for information -- which have been less than respectful.

[Dan Harden]

Hi Chris
The Randi paranormal test simply does not apply.
* With IP and real aiki in a sparring scenario; the human body functioning at a high level, simply isn't paranormal.
* Seeing cooperative Kata that leads to amazing results is no more paranormal than an extremely tight dance team would be. I'm no fan of that stuff, but it works on a certain level for training some things, best then retrained in a more stressful environment.

I can say that many teachers are impressed enough to have now made this their lifes work. But respectfully, Chris? Among the many people training this, there are extremely jaded, well seasoned people
All due respect to you (mostly because I share your views and am VERY sceptical about budo in general) I'm not going to defend me, or their choices over something so utterly practical that almost everyone returns to train it, once they understand it.

I hope that helps.

[cxt]

Dan

"does not apply"

It does when people are asserting things like being able to "blur" peoples vision....among other things.

That would be "paranormal" enough for me.

[Dan Harden]

Dan
"does not apply"
It does when people are asserting things like being able to "blur" peoples vision....among other things.
That would be "paranormal" enough for me.

No not really Chris. I can give you some examples of things that look paranormal but are completely expilcable.
* A man on the ground, his arm locked behind him thrashing about with no one touching him and he cannot get up?
It is done by a painful muscle cramping around a set joint which then self seizes. It looks truly bizarre. But the level of uke cooperation to get there is ridiculous.
* Various methods that seize a guys diaphragm. you walk away, he can't breath and will die or pass out.
again this is done by muscle cramping
* inverting the rings in the throat cartilage. This is done with a certain grab. It is very fast and you walk away and they are left standing there in a panic and passing out. They will aspirate as the fluid drains down the wind pipe and die unless the ring is reversed though massage or surgery
* Uke attacks that are overly cooperative and the right touch redirects the force and they drop and or they are seized. it is simple, directed force and a body trained to be ready to receive after attacking. Normal people don't work or think like that. Only those in the aiki arts.
* Sticking to someone so they cannot get away. The level of this you see in the aiki arts is done through kata. That type of stickiness doesn't work in fighting. However, there is a stickiness from IP/aiki that will work in fast changes that leads to enhanced openings for throws, punches and kicks, but it doesn't look at all like that stuff.
* Ridiculously overly complex multiple moves leading to joint locking and tie ups, that resemble stiff Frankenstein like, over extended and stretched out movements that do amazing things to an uke. I have no positive comment to add here.

All of these things looks totally fake, but they work. They are explainable and people can pull them off..... PROVIDED YOU DO IT TO A COOPERATIVE UKE!
I used to do them, I could do them well, I walked away from all of that a long time ago since they never worked on a grappler. Not even close and they NEVER will.
Now since it is real and on the surface looks paranormal (even thought it isn't because it requires cooperation) here is a Randi challenge!!
Ask any of those guys who do this stuff, to do it on a seasoned grappler for a million dollars!!

Now, all that said, IP/aki has many wonderful attributes that too me and many other people still are quite extraordinary-but will never look like that stuff. But... here's the thing. They work in the real world on normal people, without cooperation.
Does that help?

[cxt]

Dan

I get what you are saying but the claim/s in question are being able to "blur" peoples vision, "drop people with the slightest touch"---not FAST but "slightest" etc.

That smacks of abilities that are beyond the range of normal people---hence "paranormal"---does not have to be mystic or supernatural.

(you can "blur" peoples vision with a good punch in the head or plenty of vodka--but that is normal )

Again, don't doubt IP---esp when people, such as yourself, can explain how its done and work it against a resisting/fighting person.

Plus if somebody asks you---precisely where, whom and when can I come and experience IP skills first hand---you provide them with the info.

I just think outlandish claims harm the public opinion of folks working on IP skills...makes it harder on them it needs to be.

[P Goldsbury]

I have made a few moderator comments about certain posts, but have not deleted any material. However, we will be monitoring this and other threads more carefully than before and ignored warnings will lead to a permanent ban.

[Dan Harden]

Dan

I get what you are saying but the claim/s in question are being able to "blur" peoples vision, "drop people with the slightest touch"---not FAST but "slightest" etc.

That smacks of abilities that are beyond the range of normal people---hence "paranormal"---does not have to be mystic or supernatural.

(you can "blur" peoples vision with a good punch in the head or plenty of vodka--but that is normal )

Again, don't doubt IP---esp when people, such as yourself, can explain how its done and work it against a resisting/fighting person.

Plus if somebody asks you---precisely where, whom and when can I come and experience IP skills first hand---you provide them with the info.

I just think outlandish claims harm the public opinion of folks working on IP skills...makes it harder on them it needs to be.

Hi Chris
Okay, I see we are clear.
In my view it is the traditional arts themselves that hold the record for outlandish, and low percentage of success in the real world behaviors due to choreography and trained responses. While I am indeed a fan of Kata as a training device, that is all it is; a training device. In my view martial artists simply must take their art and go try it on someone solely invested in seeing them undone. ;-) It not only keeps everyone honest, it helps us all seperate useful from useless and save us all from both teachers and students involved in myth making.