Likes: 40
(Cliff S Judge)
Senior Member
If he told his prominent students to only teach the "real art" to one or two people, why do you think this would even be appropriate? Setting aside for the moment that we're in the Internal Power forum and not the Sword Arts forum here and the ostensible reason he was jumped by the construction workers was because he was walking around carrying his swords.Originally Posted by Koshu
(Mert Gambito)
Member
Cliff,
Would you mind clarifying what the statement about the encounter with the construction workers has to do with the question about teaching that precedes it.
Regarding the question: at some point, it's possible a given inheritor downstream doesn't insist on the same express restriction (whether oral or written) regarding transmission. Heck, the Nidai Soke of Hakkoryu demonstrated parts of his solo training regimen at an embukai. This wasn't in Japan in some inner sanctum: it was in New Jersey, and attended by mudansha, yudansha and shihan alike. He was setting the bar high for multiple generations of practitioners in that room: a good choice to help ensure the art survives to its full potential going forward.
Mert Gambito
(Cliff S Judge)
Senior Member
Takeda's survival of the encounter with the construction workers involved the use of his weapons to defend himself, not his aiki, or whatever he called it in those days if at all. I don't think what we're endlessly fulminating about in this thread has anything to do with how he survived that encounter.
If you believe Takeda only taught one or two students "the real art," and enjoined them to do the same, then it is really arrogant to position yourself as part of his legacy. If someone robs a tomb of a crown or sceptre and gives that to you, this does not make you the heir to the throne.
(Peter Goldsbury)
Administrator
Language please.
You could have made the same point with 'discussing in this thread' and 'arrogant' is a strong term to use here, tending to attack the person rather than the argument.
Peter Goldsbury,
Forum Administrator,
Hiroshima, Japan
(Mark Murray)
Banned
Regarding transmission ... We know that aikido and Daito ryu do not follow koryu models. Just look at the history.
Takeda's training as we know it has been previously posted. No lengthy studies with any koryu. Takeda's skills stood on their own.
Takuma Hisa. Started training with Takeda around 1936. In 3 years, received Menkyo Kaiden. 3 years. Started his own organization away from Ueshiba and Takeda. How many gain Menkyo Kaiden in a koryu in 3 years? We know that there are those who gain "Menkyo" scrolls or high dan ranks as "honorary" titles. Most know Hisa from his skills that impressed people rather than his title.
Ueshiba. Maybe spent the longest time with Takeda, but that isn't long at all. Looking at the time frames and noting that each training session was 10 days with Takeda's seminars, we have a total of 80 days of recorded training throughout 5 years. How many gain a teaching license in so short a time? Ueshiba walked away from Takeda and issued rank of his own. Ueshiba didn't use his license from Takeda. It was his aiki that impressed people.
Tokimune. Didn't spend a whole lot of time with his father. His father was away a good bit. He created Daito-ryu Aiki Budo and awarded titles in it. Awarded Kondo a Menkyo which supposedly is in Daito ryu aikijujutsu. Fairly confusing since we have two separate systems. Considering that his father only awarded two Menkyo certificates, none to his son, it's hard to understand what Tokimune did with lineage. Adding to that, Takeda never said he was a soke or that his art was koryu. If Tokimune, like the rest of Takeda's students, was issuing rank in his own lineage, it all lines up nicely. If Tokimune was issuing rank as soke of a system his father never created ... things get very weird.
As you can see, lineage is utterly chaotic in Daito ryu/aikido. If anything, skill was far more desired and sought after. Even then, Takeda's students didn't spend a whole lot of time with him (some say Ueshiba had the most. 80 days isn't a whole lot) and they took what they learned and did their own thing.
Heir to the throne? Looking at history of all of Takeda's students, then we have to say that the heirs to the throne were those who were shown aiki, actually trained it until they stood out from everyone else, and then did their own thing. Those are the true heirs in a system so convoluted with trying to cover historical tracks that no one will ever make sense of it.
Takeda-Sagawa-Kimura who is the most known.
Takeda-Ueshiba-geez, too many. Shioda, Tomiki, Shirata, Mochizuki, etc
Takeda-Horikawa-Okamoto as one example.
Kimura, Ueshiba's students, Okamoto all started their own thing and continued with it once they were taught aiki.
So if we follow the actual historical example from Takeda, those that were shown aiki, all went their own way with it. Heirs to aiki as passed down from Sokaku Takeda. Not a single one of Takeda's students were deeply initiated for long years in a systemized curriculum. There's even doubts that Takeda studied anywhere long enough to learn 2500+techniques from anyone. It was all about aiki and as Sagawa noted ... aiki is a body changing method and not about techniques.
Mark
(Mert Gambito)
Member
Again, aiki isn't relegated to open hand, and no one knows when Takeda became adept at aiki (he'd been training in martial arts for some time by the time of that incident) -- though given his legendary reputation and talent, I don't feel it's unreasonable to think aiki may have been a factor in his survival (and, of course, he presumably further developed his skills with aiki throughout the rest of his life).
Unfortunately, as happened earlier in this thread, my statements are being mis-characterized and mis-represented. I said, "at some point, it's possible a given inheritor downstream doesn't insist on the same express restriction (whether oral or written) regarding transmission", and then offered a first-hand account in my own martial arts lineage, which directly descends from Daito-ryu, that the internal teaching is not limited to one or two chosen inheritors now, regardless of whether or not that was the case early in the preceding century. Besides, no arrogance, just a fact: as a Hakkoryu practitioner, I'm by default part of Takeda's legacy -- in general, as well as in terms of being given an opportunity to pursue both the internal aspects inherited from Daito-ryu, and from traditional Asian medicine (as codified in, and inherited by the Japanese, from China).
And then there's this:
So, we have the soke-dairi of mainline Daito-ryu teaching to non-inheritors in his lineage what he describes as "secret teachings" of aiki, and admitting that he believes his teacher would disapprove. However, given Kondo's position of authority and willingness to state for the record his deviation from T. Takeda's wishes, it's logical to conclude that there must be a clear distinction in Kondo's mind between his teacher's opinion and a material breach of oath or contract. In any case, Kondo indicates that he continues to teach as described, accepting foolishly or not that some students will leave over time and may disseminate the teachings beyond the ryu. This also synchs with Dan's account of Kondo teaching solo training outside the context of a closed-door class.
So, is it a curiosity that a westerner, such as Dan. got the "secret teachings" regarding aiki with the freedom to further explore its utilization in venues outside of the one in which he received them? Perhaps several decades ago. Now, not so much.
Last edited by Koshu; 10th December 2014 at 02:16.
Mert Gambito
(Raphael Deutsch)
Member
Mr Murray,
I´m sorry but once again you are not giving the right information here. I do not have the time to write down everything since it would take a considerable amount of time. For anybody interested in Daito-ryu´s history, some books are vital. Those are: Conversation with Daito-ryu masters from Stanley Pranin, Transparent power from Kimura Tatsuo, Daito-ryu Aikibudo history and techniques from Antonino Certa.
If you haven´t read those books, I can only recommend them.
In CWDR, Tokmune Sensei makes it clear that Ueshiba Morihei did study much more than 80 days. It´s on page 57.
By the way, Sagawa Yukiyoshi believed that he was the one who actually studied the most with Sokaku. If we are to believe Tranparent power, it does not seem that Sokaku did teach him "aiki on purpose". Sagawa Sohan stated many times that he got aiki by himself as a 17 years old deshi.
I do believe that it is fairly clear that Sokaku wanted his son to succeed him as the head of the school. Tokimune Soke has indeed taken many notes which are faithful recordings of his father´s traning and oral instructions. Those documents are known as the Tokimune´s notes and contain a lot of teachings, both practical and esoteric.
Originally Posted by Katsuyuki Kondo (from daito-ryu.org)
My teacher [Tokimune Takeda] explained . . . "What will you do if you teach people the true techniques and the next day they leave the school? The oral and secret teachings of Daito-ryu will flow outside of the school." He also said, "Out of a thousand people, only one or two are genuine students. Find them out and teach them what is real; there is no need to teach such things to the rest." My teacher only taught real techniques to a person if he could ascertain, from his questions, technical and physical ability, apprehension, and diligence, that they carried a sincere and genuine attitude. He inherited this method of teaching from Sokaku sensei.
Among explanations of aiki I heard from my teacher were "tsun" and "asagao" ("morning glory"). It took me several years to understand the meaning of asagao. Even now I cannot forget when my teacher told me "You did well", praising me for solving this riddle. These days, with my own students, I teach the same technique many times and I always hear my teacher scolding me from the heaven. There he is looking down on me and saying, "What a fool you are!"
With all due respect, this quote does not make any sense. There are no such things as "true techniques". Once the basics are acquired, the only way to improve your game is to get Aiki or any kind of superior skills. I have met people who have amazing skills, they do not care about "techniques", angles, postions of the hands, right or left, or whether the opponent is pulling or pushing. They just do and that´s it. Every move they make does affect the opponent in a rather disconcerting way. Some are teaching very openly, others not.
Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.
Väck ej björnen som sover
Raphael Deutsch
(Cliff S Judge)
Senior Member
Mert, I apologize for my choice of words. I meant to include myself in the aspersion that this thread is an "endless fulmination," and I had hoped that I was being hyperbolic when I used the term "arrogant," i.e. I was saying that a particular statement would be arrogant, not that you yourself were arrogant.
I maintain that, if you believe Takeda only meant for one or two people to be taught the "real art," then it is an arrogant statement to describe yourself as extending or participating in his legacy, unless you are one of the lineal, chosen, one or two.
But I have my doubts about how people tend to interpret that statement of Takeda's. I've never read it in Japanese to know what is being translated as "real," and I'd want to see some cross-examination of the interview's context before I accepted that. If one or two people are only being taught the "real art" then that means all of those other thousands were taught the "fake" art. Who would want anything to do with an art like that? The only thing stupider than training the "fake art" would be believing that you've found someone who knows the "true" art.
Some things Mark said:
Absolutely. But what model was Daito ryu intended to follow? Scrolls were granted, there was a mythological lineage stretching back many generations. Takeda was not a man who embraced the direction history was taking Japan. He looked to older systems and models.
What if instead of teaching his inner people that they should teach a fake art to most students, and a real art to only one or two students, he was saying that they should teach Daito ryu in layers, along the lines of a koryu? Perhaps we should be reading that Takeda said "only teach the inner secrets to one or two people," which would be similar to how a koryu works.
I had a conversation with my teacher (Dr. Hall) a couple of years ago about whether the lower-level kata in the older koryu were solely meant to develop a foundation upon which later skills would rest. What I was wondering was, since there were only going to be a relatively small number of fully licensed people to come out of a certain dojo, did people enter these schools in the hopes that they would be The Ones? What about the others who washed out or got into fights before they were completely trained?
What he told me makes a lot of sense, that if you trained someone for a year, and they got into a fight and died, that would reflect poorly on you and might cost you business. So in the old days, it was unlikely that a curriculum would be organized in bad faith, or in a way that low-level teachings were useless, other than in the context of high-level teachings. The business model of a particular ryuha is as risky as any given student's first real fight.
That's logical to me, so the concept that Mark poses here, where you first learn internal power and then learn combat application, would seem backwards. It might serve you well as a modern person who will never get into a real swordfight, but it's doesn't fit the old model. You might not have any interest in the old model and might prefer to train in sweatpants and sneakers in an exciting new modality, more power to you, but I think Takeda was enjoining his senior disciples to stick to the old way.
Because here's the thing:
If you take away the internal power work from Daito ryu, you are left with a robust and elegant jujutsu system that is as effective as any late-Edo suhada bujutsu in teaching empty-hand combat. It instills a sense of timing, distance, psychological domination, how to break down an opponent's body, how the joints work and don't work, and it builds general body strength, coordination, and resilience.
If you take all of THAT out of Daito ryu and leave the internal power...I don't deny that you are left with something very interesting and worth doing. But all I've ever heard is that it is a thing that enhances or deepens existing training, or that "and then after that you can go do this other stuff." Which in my opinion means it is not, for some value of "practical," a very practical thing to train by itself, unless there is some other primary training happening.
(Mark Murray)
Banned
Please call me Mark.
I've read about 95% of the books on aikido that are in english. My library at one time was extensive.
You are right that it was more time. I was thinking of just the 1915-1919 time frame. I forgot to add 1922.
While it is unclear as to exactly how long Ueshiba trained with Takeda, we see from the Eimeiroku and Shareiroku of Takeda, Ueshiba studied for about 30 days from February to April of 1915. (3) However, some accounts state that Ueshiba trained from morning to night. (4) Other accounts agree with this. (1) One account states that a lot of Ueshiba's time was taken up with attending to Takeda. (5) We know that Takeda taught in 10 day sessions and because there were other people there, then it would be hard to think that Takeda spent morning to night with just Ueshiba. Many accounts also state that Takeda was demanding and Ueshiba spent a lot of time with non-training activities. With the Japanese system of training, this is understandable. According to the Eimeiroku and Shareiroku of Takeda, in 1916 Ueshiba trained for about 40 days from January to March. (3)
Ueshiba is recorded to have trained seven times from 1915 to 1919. As noted, this was quite a bit more when compared to other students of Takeda. (8) Clearly, there was something out of the ordinary in the relationship between Morihei Ueshiba and Sokaku Takeda. Looking at the time frames and noting that each training session was 10 days, we have a total of 70 days of recorded training throughout 5 years. The actual hands-on training time with Takeda was, in the overall picture, very, very small. The majority of time spent training was done either in solo practice or with others.
Entries for AYABE are: 28 April to 11 May 1922; 1 to 10 June 1922; 11 to 19 June 1922; 1 to 10 July 1922; and 15 to 24 August 1922. An overall entry for the above 1922 period of instruction dated 28 April to 15 September 1922 is also recorded. Finally, for Tokyo, 29 March to 7 April 1931. (3) We have around 5 and 1/2 months of instruction in 1922. Again, that's overall time, not training time. Takeda was teaching seminars throughout this timeframe. Roughly, then, going by actual seminars, Ueshiba trained 5. That's 50 days of training. Total recorded seminar time with Takeda = 120 days.
1. Abundant Peace by John Stevens.
When Sokaku returned to Hokkaido a few years later, inevitably he and Morihei crossed paths. Morihei had known of Sokaku's presence in Hokkaido for some time. Once, after thrashing a sumo wrestler in an impromptu contest, Morihei was asked if he was the "famous Sokaku Takeda." On a trip to Engaru, Morihei learned that Sokaku was conducting a session in a nearby inn and immediately rushed there to attend. After witnessing an impressive demonstration and being deftly handled by the skinny Sokaku, Morihei applied for admission to the "Daito Ryu," as Sokaku styled his teaching, and was accepted. Morihei forgot about everything else, staying at the inn for a month, training day and night with Sokaku; following thirty days of practice, Morihei was presented with a first-level teaching license. (My NOTE: The next paragraph states that Morihei returned to Shirataki and invited Sokaku there.) ... and received private instruction each morning for two hours. Sokaku also taught a group lesson later in the day.
3. http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclo...hp?entryID=723
4. Morihei Ueshiba the Founder of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba
In fact, in the course of practicing from morning to night every day for one month, the Founder was very shocked by Daito-ryu secret techniques. Although the Founder had strong power, he was outmatched as to the free application of techniques and decisiveness of pins. The Founder was captivated by these techniques, and felt that there was something to be pursued.
5. Black Belt 1963 Vol 1 No 5
Quotes Takeda as saying:
For generations Daito-Ryu was kept within the Takeda's family. But now it seemed like it would perish when I die because I am the sole survivor of the Takeda's family … Unless I teach it to an outsider, like you … (My NOTE: Article states Ueshiba studied a month but it was mostly attending Takeda.) For five years Morihei studied under his master before he was granted a certificate of mastery. During the five years ninety per cent of his training was on his own because the course was very expensive.
8. Aikido Masters: Prewar students of Morihei Ueshiba. Stan Pranin.
Maybe Sagawa did study the most. Maybe he even had better aiki than Ueshiba. We'll probably never know for sure. What we do know, though, is that the actual hands-on training time with Takeda was very, very little compared to students today. With an hour and a half training for three days a week, you get about 230 hours in a year. That doesn't include all the seminars that students are expected to attend. If Ueshiba spent 10 hours a day at the 10 day seminars, then we have 1200 hours total. Today's student would hit that in 5 years. Probably 4 if we include seminars. Most likely 3-4 years because when students get close to brown and black belt, they put in a lot more time training.
Takeda probably did look for a successor. It's said that he had Ueshiba in mind at one point in time. But, Takeda was never a soke. Takeda didn't have a standardized curriculum. Takeda wasn't deeply initiated into any koryu. So, as successions go ... it's unclear how Tokimune could call himself soke of a standardized system when his father had neither. Unless we look at Ueshiba's example, when his son took control of Tokyo and created something very different than what his father was doing.
Mark
(Timothy Walters Kleinert)
Senior Member
So Cliff, how would you respond to the Kodokai? Isn't the story that Takeda only taught Kodo aiki techniques, because he already had some prior jujutsu experience? What does this say about the nature of Takeda's art, if he was willing to completely cut out certain sections when instructing an "inner" student?
--Timothy Kleinert
Aikido & Qigongs
(Raphael Deutsch)
Member
Hello Mark,
I think that both of us would definetely agree that the amount of time spent with a teacher is not as important as what was taught and to which level. It looks like, Sokaku´s skills were such that he could get almost anyone to study with him, there surely was something different, yet fascinating, in his teaching. Sometimes, I wish I had been there too, what an experience it must have been.
As a genius himself, Ueshiba Morihei was apparently quickly able to grasp what made Sokaku´s techniques so special and so effective and then went his own way.
I do agree with you that Ueshiba Morihei got what was fundamental, and by all accounts, it was not an easy task. It seems that despite the relatively modest amount of time (especially by our modern standards) they spent together, this time was used in a most efficient way.
This is a very good description of Daito-ryu. Sure, there were people who reached (and still do) a fairly higher level that "just" the one you described, but getting to this point is not that bad to say the least. Aiki would allow the practitioner to go and to develop even further your skills giving you new possibilities and insights. This is also possible thanks to the strong basics offered by the school.
Last edited by Raff; 10th December 2014 at 18:46.
Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.
Väck ej björnen som sover
Raphael Deutsch
(Raphael Deutsch)
Member
Message deleted see above.
Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.
Väck ej björnen som sover
Raphael Deutsch
(Cliff S Judge)
Senior Member
Timothy,
I dunno. There wouldn't be anything unusual about an advanced student being skipped over the foundational material in the old days. In a lot of the older koryu, the foundational material wasn't added until generations later as the ambient quality of fighting skills fell with the peace.
This is one of the Daito ryu legends that doesn't add up for me though. His father was a licensed instructor, but didn't teach him any Daito ryu, only the other school? And he started training with Takeda when he was 14, then 17 years later he got his scrolls. There is plenty of room for him to have actually learned the basics in Daito ryu mode in there. And Sagawa was not known as a warm, friendly guy who played well with others, so I do not understand why or how Horikawa would pay him a visit in his 60s for a refresher on what the jujutsu kata were. I assume things were more straightforward than that.Because [Kodo Horikawa] had already learned some level of Shibukawa-ryū jujutsu from his father, I have read that Takeda Sokaku started teaching him the aspects of Daitō-ryū concerned with aiki, rather than its jujutsu techniques, which were not really all that different from Shibukawa-ryū. Many decades later, Horikawa visited Sagawa Yukiyoshi, another senior student of Takeda, and requested that the latter teach him the jujutsu portion of the Daitō-ryū, over the course of a few days.
(Mert Gambito)
Member
Cliff,
Why the narrow view?
From dictionary.com:
Isn't part of the "legacy of ancient Rome", for example, the alphabet and many of the words/phrases we're using in this discussion, on this forum (<- case in point)? All of us who use these communication tools are beneficiaries of a broad legacy. Ditto for those of us who study Daito-ryu or an art derived from it.legacy
noun, plural legacies.
[. . .]
2. anything handed down from the past, as from an ancestor or predecessor:
the legacy of ancient Rome.
Sokaku Takeda is long dead, and most of us are receiving information from men two generations after him. By actions and words, for which I've provided supporting information, some current Japanese and other Asian lineage holders have chosen to take calculated risks with eyes wide open to change the inheritance paradigm of the omote as well as ura aspects of their respective arts. If there are some among us who aren't happy about that, then I suppose they can take up the matter with Kondo, the Okuyama family, Sam Chin, et al.
Mert Gambito
(Cliff S Judge)
Senior Member
Or one could stop worrying about whether your training is exactly as it would have been if you had trained directly with Takeda or Ueshiba, or been one of their favored deshi, or whether your training is somehow not as "good" or "real" as someone else's. Just find good people to train with, challenge yourself consistently, and be honest about who you are and what you can do. If you really buy into the concept that there is some secret, "real" aiki that is useful/meaningful to train by itself without foundational jujutsu training, and the rest is a sham that is put up to get punters, you should be running far away.
Last edited by Cliff Judge; 10th December 2014 at 21:06.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote