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Thread: UK 40th Anniversary Celebration.

  1. #46
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    Oh dear! Indar, what I learnt was SK was a system of self defence and protecting
    the other people against injustice, not to create a will to fight? That sounds like
    the talk of people who follow Budo to be a sport, not Budo?
    I'm afraid your remarks are one's I best ignore, because they are on a lower level
    than the discussion I'm trying to have re the true history of SK in the UK.
    I go back further than you, Indar, - the origins, maybe respect that as I respect the
    people who have progressed the ideals after me?

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by PETER JEAVONS View Post
    Oh dear! Indar, what I learnt was SK was a system of self defence and protecting
    the other people against injustice, not to create a will to fight? That sounds like
    the talk of people who follow Budo to be a sport, not Budo?
    I'm afraid your remarks are one's I best ignore, because they are on a lower level
    than the discussion I'm trying to have re the true history of SK in the UK.
    I go back further than you, Indar, - the origins, maybe respect that as I respect the
    people who have progressed the ideals after me?
    OK, with respect: If you are not willing to fight then you can't and won't protect or defend anyone, including yourself.

    If we are talking about history, research the randoori competitions that Arai Sensei, Aosaka Sensei, and Mizuno Sensei participated in when they were learning Shorinji Kempo.

    Perhaps it sounds arrogant, but I lived in Nigeria as a VSO volunteer for two years, and was directly influenced in this decision by my relationship with Mizuno Sensei.

    Do you know about Boko Haram?
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

  3. #48
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    With respect also, Indar, you don't even know me or my life.
    I choose to avoid fighting, unless necessary. Most of my life,
    I have defended many who were unable to defend themselves
    in real life, in many ways apart from fighting. These morals were
    learnt through my experiences of Shorinji Kempo. I'm afraid what
    I hear from you shows how SK has changed over the years since
    I practised it. I can certainly defend myself, my spirit and soul
    does that for me.
    I reiterate, my soul purpose is to rectify the incorrect recordings
    of the history of SK in the UK, nothing else.
    I'm afraid your constant posts to what I try to elaborate on shows
    I maybe have reached a higher level of spirit and soul as a human being
    than you maybe have?
    You are certainly showing many here your side? I feel nothing I have
    posted has been detrimental or disrespectful, just giving a true record
    of the origins of SK in the UK.
    Your posts just appear to be derogatory to those giving some true
    information?
    Quote - ''OK, with respect: If you are not willing to fight then you can't
    and won't protect or defend anyone, including yourself.''

    What a contradiction, that comment shows no respect at all!
    I'm not out to fight, that seems your agenda, I'm merely establishing the truth.

  4. #49
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    Peter has not, I believe, met Indar. Neither have I. People have told me that in real life he is very nice. I have only encountered his online persona. I have not managed to develop an affection for it. Oh well.

    Peter's efforts to ensure nothing is lost, reminded me of this Wiki page and the various examples of how Soviet skills in stone-age photoshop were utilised to re-write history again and again.
    Name:  Soviet_censorship_with_Stalin.jpg
Views: 298
Size:  147.3 KB

    The original picture, left to right Nikolai Antipov, Joseph Stalin, Sergei Kirov, and Nikolai Shvernik. Picture shows how after time each of the Stalin's comrades from the original shot was removed as they fell out of favor.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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  6. #50
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    Couldn't put it better David!

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    Haha David. I posted that on facebook to make the similar point a while ago.

    Indar, why do you find the passing off point funny? I'd have thought by now that you would understand that BSKF (as the company is called https://www.opencompany.co.uk/company/07568200/bskf) is a perfectly legitimate legal entity in the UK, that has been granted by legal contract all the assets, IP and goodwill of the unincorporated British Shorinji Kempo Federation (now defunct) and in turn the BSKA. We are perfectly entitled to protect ourselves from other entities trying to use our goodwill (read "history" if you like) to their benefit.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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  10. #52
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    David, it was probably you that I got it from in the first place. I've found ways to bring it into many conversations since then. Sometimes people actually get fooled into thinking I know what I'm talking about. Occasionally I make it all too obvious (see Indar correctly pointing out my prefix/suffix error), but I try to learn from my mistakes - and I'm always happy to be corrected.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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  12. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post

    Indar, why do you find the passing off point funny? I'd have thought by now that you would understand that BSKF (as the company is called https://www.opencompany.co.uk/company/07568200/bskf) is a perfectly legitimate legal entity in the UK, that has been granted by legal contract all the assets, IP and goodwill of the unincorporated British Shorinji Kempo Federation (now defunct) and in turn the BSKA. We are perfectly entitled to protect ourselves from other entities trying to use our goodwill (read "history" if you like) to their benefit.
    So we created the U.K.S.K.F in 2012 by stealing your intellectual property, i.e. techniques and philosophy, and your goodwill?

    According to your version of history then, W.S.K.O. are usurpers, and we are passing ourselves off as you?

    The scary thing is that eventually you'll start believing this to be true; that Shorinji Kempo was created in Britain, and that the Japanese stole it from you.
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

  13. #54
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    No Indar. I said none of those things. Both organisations are entitled to practice and teach Shorinji kempo. It is the Shorinji kempo that Doshin So learned in China, and re-organised into its current form in Japan. We have common history. We cannot use each others IP (books, photos, DVDs, trademarks) or goodwill (http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ian/ian-assets...s-goodwill.htm).
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

  14. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpowell View Post
    I don't doubt that Sensei Yoshida made a great contribution to Shorinji Kempo in the UK during his 5 years teaching here. But I will repeat a claim I've made elsewhere, that to acknowledge the contribution of someone like Yoshida Sensei while deliberately excluding the contribution of Mizuno Sensei who has been teaching in the UK for 40 years, is nothing less than a colossal insult and a rewriting of history. It's not just about what you say, it's about how you say it, and what you don't say.
    I don't think that you have thought this through. Do you want W.S.K.O. to say "Tameo Mizuno was the Chief Instructor in the U.K. and a W.S.K.O. instructor and board member for many years until we discovered that he had been stealing from us. We made a deal to enable him to save face and eventually resume training, however he did not honour the deal so we dismissed him" ?

    I'm not saying that this is an historically accurate account, because I don't know. But it is W.S.K.O.'s version, and I assume that they feel that it's better for both sides if it remains unsaid. Which it would have done if Dave hadn't hijacked this thread.
    Indar Picton-Howell
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    Abujavol

  15. #56
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    Indar, if anyone said such a thing it would be a blatant lie and highly defamatory.

    Also, just for clarity, I am not responsible for what you publish on this forum.

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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Also, just for clarity, I am not responsible for what you publish on this forum.
    Innen.

    Seems like you had a good seminar, and we are happy for you.

    We had a good seminar, and.........
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

  18. #58
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    Hello Indar,

    Long time no see. Your name actually came up the other day, as a Swiss kenshi and I were remembering the joint Swiss-German seminar in Basel in 2008.

    I have actually seen the documents of which you and Huw speak - as have many of the other instructors. I'm afraid they aren't as dramatic as you might think, and don't really prove anything. You are welcome to ask Sensei Chris and Sensei Richard (Jarman) as well, if you think I might be being partial on this, but I might remind you that I originally came from the South Coast under Sensei Russ, and I had no particular connection to Sensei Mizuno until after the split with WSKO.

    WSKO's allegations were always a bit odd. For a start they wouldn't tell us what they were for ages - just that they were "very bad". This game of whispers carried on a long time, and during this time many of us (such as Dav and myself) asked them to criminally prosecute if they had the evidence, so that we could know one way or the other. They talked about wanting to "protect [Sensei Mizuno's] honour" but at the same time were putting it out that he's done something that could warrant "5 or 10 years in jail". Now if you think of what crimes in Britain get you 5 or 10 years in prison, then you think of all sorts of heinous crimes - but nothing as minor as what WSKO eventually came out and tried to claim (and have since dropped altogether).

    There were other odd things about WSKO's position. For instance, some other branch masters wanted to enter a plea for clemency - but they were warned (by WSKO) that if they did this the punishment would be *increased*. I couldn't find any way in which this made sense. We were also ordered (yes: I do mean "ordered") not to speak to Sensei Mizuno or listen to his side of the story. Not an issue for me, as I didn't have his number anyway, but it certainly didn't sound right.

    By the end it seemed quite clear (to Dav and I at least) that whether there was any truth in these allegations, they certainly weren't WSKO's primary concern. It certainly looked by the end that WSKO had attempted to bluff with a weak hand, and had that bluff called - which they hadn't banked on. The "Human Happiness and Development Organisation" was left with a fractured UK federation and a lot of very disgusted people.

    Where WSKO played their hand very well was by relying on rumour and insinuation. It is impossible to defeat a rumour of wrong-doing, as you can't prove a negative. Although WSKO lost most of the UK, they can continue to rely on the rumours being circulated by their supporters to undermine the BSKF. British law doesn't approve of this type of character assassination -you either challenge openly or say nothing. I have no idea whether this is the case or not in Japan, but to me it seems honourable to make good on your allegations or withdraw them.

    You will have to judge WSKO on how they behave towards you and others. If they have behaved consistently honourably in front of you, then I am happy for you. I now remember little incidents that I found odd before 2010, and wish I hadn't just ignored them.

    Best regards,

    Mike
    Mike Sadler

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    Default Rumours and innuendo

    Quote Originally Posted by SandM View Post
    They talked about wanting to "protect [Sensei Mizuno's] honour" but at the same time were putting it out that he's done something that could warrant "5 or 10 years in jail".
    Sorry, Steve Williams mentioned a relevant point in a private message which it might be worth mentioning here. The specific allegation about 'an offence that could warrant 5-10 years in prison' actually came from Sensei Russell Jenkins in a meeting in a pub in Southampton, based on information he claimed came from WSKO. At the time, this was about the most official source of information available within the BSKF.

    As Steve points out, it is actually impossible to verify someone's sources or how much each person may have embellished the story themselves. People generally trusted their own instructor - but different instructors were saying contradictory things...
    Mike Sadler

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    Default The core

    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by SandM View Post
    People generally trusted their own instructor - but different instructors were saying contradictory things...
    That was – and is – probably the core of the whole thing.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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