UK 40th Anniversary Celebration.

[PETER JEAVONS]

Not at all, Indar but, I am merely talking about the history of SK in the UK?
I have not mentioned the WSKO or membership of one organisation or
the other. That is a red herring in the discussion I am having?

[jpowell]

Indar, following the rules is one thing, deciding whether you can follow those rules in good conscience is another.

Maybe the cognitive dissonance required to be asked to believe one version of history, yet to know another to be true is too great for some people.

[Indar]

Not at all, Indar but, I am merely talking about the history of SK in the UK?
I have not mentioned the WSKO or membership of one organisation or
the other. That is a red herring in the discussion I am having?

It may be. It's not for me to make that judgement.

I understand that Mizuno Sensei was asked to leave W.S.K.O. because he didn't follow the rules. If this is the case, then it may be better that we don't publicise this.

[Indar]

I'm going to regret taking the bait, but here goes. I think David Dunn's issue was not with any kind of abstract celebration of Shorinji Kempo, but with the assertion being made by certain members that the UKSKF itself has been in existence for 40 years, and was founded by Toshiaki Yoshida. The article written by my former branchmaster on the official WSKO website, makes that claim clearly http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/b-report/555.html.

No, it doesn't. "Whose first branch was established by..." You are reading between the lines and seeing something that is not there.

Sensei Peter Moore was taught by Yoshida Sensei and is currently Vice President of the U.K.S.K.F., so there is a clear lineage.

Just as there is a clear lineage from Mizuno Sensei to myself, so I am (in my (deluded) world) entitled to claim that I am continuing in the tradition of Shorinji Kempo which was carried here, (not founded here), by him in 1974.

And no-one in our world ever regrets taking the bait. As you will discover for yourself.

[David Dunn]

Indar, there's nothing wrong with my maths. If someone is born in 1974, their tenth birthday is in 1984 and their 40th is in 2004. I'm a bit perplexed as to why anyone is trying to deny it.

Anyway, the point Jonathan made is correct. It is very disconcerting to see untruths written down and asserted as truths, particularly when they are pointedly designed to deny someone's great contribution. The article states: "an event commemorating the 40th anniversary of the UK Shorinji Kempo Federation". It is simply untrue that the UKSKF is 40 years old. The second sentence "The UK Shorinji Kempo Federation, whose first branch was established by Toshiaki Yoshida in 1974, turned forty this year" also states that the UKSKF is forty. There's no reading between any lines.

[Indar]

Indar, there's nothing wrong with my maths. If someone is born in 1974, their tenth birthday is in 1984 and their 40th is in 2004. I'm a bit perplexed as to why anyone is trying to deny it.

Anyway, the point Jonathan made is correct. It is very disconcerting to see untruths written down and asserted as truths, particularly when they are pointedly designed to deny someone's great contribution. The article states: "an event commemorating the 40th anniversary of the UK Shorinji Kempo Federation". It is simply untrue that the UKSKF is 40 years old. The second sentence "The UK Shorinji Kempo Federation, whose first branch was established by Toshiaki Yoshida in 1974, turned forty this year" also states that the UKSKF is forty. There's no reading between any lines.

Yep, I concede on the math. And I won't point out the typo, since I'm sure that it was simply human error.

But I think that you want to eat your cake and have it. A very human trait, I know.

Your don't like W.S.K.O., and you don't acknowledge that they have any authority. So why would you care about what they don't say?

I would suggest that you could sue them for defamation, but I don't think that you can defame someone by not mentioning them.

[David Dunn]

Indar, in this case I am saddened by the deliberate dishonesty, and it resembles one of the traits of Stalinism. Rewriting of history is done to limit the ability of people to reason about the present. I'm more generally saddened by WSKO's dishonesty about Doshin So's own teachings, which I believe are valuable and useful. That's not the subject of this thread though.

[Indar]

Indar, in this case I am saddened by the deliberate dishonesty, and it resembles one of the traits of Stalinism. Rewriting of history is done to limit the ability of people to reason about the present. I'm more generally saddened by WSKO's dishonesty about Doshin So's own teachings, which I believe are valuable and useful. That's not the subject of this thread though.

I tend to think that you are sincere, although I have no way of really knowing. But the B.S.K.F. is not in any position to lecture anyone on deliberate dishonesty and Stalinism. If you are interested I will scan and email a copy of the letter sent to me in 2008 and signed by Jeremy Peakin, General Secretary of the B.S.K.F. The rules say that you cannot determine who can and cannot practise Shorinji Kempo. You broke the rules, and you lied about the reason. Why?

[David Dunn]

Indar, I'm speaking for myself, not the BSKF, and if it sounded lecturing then it wasn't intended to. As far as I know, the BSKF doesn't have a position, and hasn't commented on this subject. I don't expect it will. We have taken legal advice on possible passing off.

I'm not uncritical of the BSKF of the past. I think we have learned a lot of things since 2008. The course of action that some BSKF members took then was actually intended to fix some of the problems the BSKF had, but it was too late. In my opinion, the closing down of the executive committee (around 2004?) was the biggest mistake the BSKF ever made. That was beginning to be reversed in 2008.

[PETER JEAVONS]

Well, from what I've read and heard, personally I would say Sensei Mizuno and the BSKF members should hold their' heads high for standing by their' principles and continuing to practise over all these years, despite the problems. I raise my glass to those guys and wish I had been able to attend the anniversary. Oh, and if anyone wants to read the 'true' history, check out the BSKF website!

[Indar]

Indar, I'm speaking for myself, not the BSKF, and if it sounded lecturing then it wasn't intended to. As far as I know, the BSKF doesn't have a position, and hasn't commented on this subject. I don't expect it will. We have taken legal advice on possible passing off.

I take it all back. You have a superb sense of humour.

Unless it was another typo, and you actually meant "passing wind"?

(If you are speaking for yourself, then "We have taken legal advice" us is using the royal We? The problem with democracy is that it becomes confusing as to when you are speaking individually, and when collectively. The other problem is that it's difficult to act as a unit, unless you have military training. Err............... you are practicing budo.)

[PETER JEAVONS]

Indar, I personally think you are baiting here? As someone posted earlier, the conversations here would not attract new members
and personally, if you are practising Budo, then attacking guys who are merely trying to establish the true history of SK in the UK
is certainly not what I learnt about Budo from Sensei Mizuno and Sensei Yoshida.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Maybe for BSFK it would be 'reverse passing off'?

[Indar]

Indar, I personally think you are baiting here? As someone posted earlier, the conversations here would not attract new members
and personally, if you are practising Budo, then attacking guys who are merely trying to establish the true history of SK in the UK
is certainly not what I learnt about Budo from Sensei Mizuno and Sensei Yoshida.

Yes, I am. And from what I remember of Mizuno Sensei's howa, he taught each person based on his assessment of their ability and potential.
Unfortunately I never met Yoshida Sensei, but I had a good relationship with Sensei Russell, and still do with Sensei Peter.

That is not attacking. You should see me when I get annoyed.

[Indar]

Indar, I personally think you are baiting here? As someone posted earlier, the conversations here would not attract new members

We are interested in people with the will to fight. Not people who want to learn how to be nice. The B.S.K.F. can have them.