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Thread: Aikido Handgun Disarm

  1. #1
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    Default Aikido Handgun Disarm

    Thought this would be good to post here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r90w...eature=related
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Just goes to show: a little skill, a little stupid and a lot of luck will get you through one time in a hundred. Even in the reconstruct he rotates the wrist in dojo fashion so that the gun is pointing straight at his own head as he rotates the wrist. Kote gaeshi disarm should be done withe barrel pointing at the assailant in case of accidental discharge. But hey, kudos to the guy's nerve and reactions, but I think I'd rather give the guy the ice cream ;-)
    Consider fully , act decisively
    Alec Corper

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    Calling it stupid, and blind luck, is a bit much.

    IDEALLY, one would not want to sweep oneself - or a bystander - with the muzzle of the the weapon. We can't know exactly what happened since we don't have video and there is no handgun present in the impromptu demonstration. We also see if from a perspective that is skewed, as is the nature of video, in particular with such a casual reconstruction. Muzzle sweep is also to be expected in any struggle over a gun the minute real pressure is turned on. The idea would be to minimize it.

    Note that - based on the same demonstration - the muzzle is already pointed at him when he initiates the technique. If he feels he is going to be shot its is best he act with whatever he has, when he can. He did.

    Keeping in mind that we should not debrief based on "alls well that ends well:" a gun pointing at you, threats to shoot, are an assault. This man was being assaulted when he acted.

    I for one disavow the idea common in martial arts and self defense circles - and in too much official police advice - to just "give them what they want." "Appease them, its only money." "Hell, its not even YOUR money..." This man was the victim of a violent felony, with all the trauma and fear that it represents at the moment and in the aftermath. That kind of stuff has a half life. No one has a right to do that to you. This is far more than simple verbal threats or a grab-from-the-till and run. In the later case, sure, give him what he wants. If your life is being threatened, better to act than to wait and see what *might* happen, or to simply just "give him the ice cream." I think this is poor advice and the latter is frankly flippant.

    I stand behind the view that this is an example of a contextually appropriate, if imperfect, use of a wrist lock technique (and aikido), placing it in the framework of overall self defense, and more relevant than the inane and seemingly endless discussions of aikido versus streetfighters or BJJ.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Good for him! I am glad it worked out.

    This mass collective conscious in the West pushing us all to be a society of victims is bull shit.

    Maybe this scumbag will have an epiphany then go to confession and then seek a new line of work.
    Ed Boyd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Calling it stupid, and blind luck, is a bit much.

    IDEALLY, one would not want to sweep oneself - or a bystander - with the muzzle of the the weapon. We can't know exactly what happened since we don't have video and there is no handgun present in the impromptu demonstration. We also see if from a perspective that is skewed, as is the nature of video, in particular with such a casual reconstruction. Muzzle sweep is also to be expected in any struggle over a gun the minute real pressure is turned on. The idea would be to minimize it.

    Note that - based on the same demonstration - the muzzle is already pointed at him when he initiates the technique. If he feels he is going to be shot its is best he act with whatever he has, when he can. He did.

    Keeping in mind that we should not debrief based on "alls well that ends well:" a gun pointing at you, threats to shoot, are an assault. This man was being assaulted when he acted.

    I for one disavow the idea common in martial arts and self defense circles - and in too much official police advice - to just "give them what they want." "Appease them, its only money." "Hell, its not even YOUR money..." This man was the victim of a violent felony, with all the trauma and fear that it represents at the moment and in the aftermath. That kind of stuff has a half life. No one has a right to do that to you. This is far more than simple verbal threats or a grab-from-the-till and run. In the later case, sure, give him what he wants. If your life is being threatened, better to act than to wait and see what *might* happen, or to simply just "give him the ice cream." I think this is poor advice and the latter is frankly flippant.

    I stand behind the view that this is an example of a contextually appropriate, if imperfect, use of a wrist lock technique (and aikido), placing it in the framework of overall self defense, and more relevant than the inane and seemingly endless discussions of aikido versus streetfighters or BJJ.
    Kit, as always very well stated.
    P.S. check your box. P.M. inbound.
    Tony Urena

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    Thanks for posting Kit, glad there is still some life in this sub-forum

    Nice to see a story with a positive outcome for a change. I view so many traffic-stop-gone-wrong videos and the like.
    Al Heinemann
    www.shofukan.ca

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Calling it stupid, and blind luck, is a bit much.

    IDEALLY, one would not want to sweep oneself - or a bystander - with the muzzle of the the weapon. We can't know exactly what happened since we don't have video and there is no handgun present in the impromptu demonstration. We also see if from a perspective that is skewed, as is the nature of video, in particular with such a casual reconstruction. Muzzle sweep is also to be expected in any struggle over a gun the minute real pressure is turned on. The idea would be to minimize it.

    Note that - based on the same demonstration - the muzzle is already pointed at him when he initiates the technique. If he feels he is going to be shot its is best he act with whatever he has, when he can. He did.

    Keeping in mind that we should not debrief based on "alls well that ends well:" a gun pointing at you, threats to shoot, are an assault. This man was being assaulted when he acted.

    I for one disavow the idea common in martial arts and self defense circles - and in too much official police advice - to just "give them what they want." "Appease them, its only money." "Hell, its not even YOUR money..." This man was the victim of a violent felony, with all the trauma and fear that it represents at the moment and in the aftermath. That kind of stuff has a half life. No one has a right to do that to you. This is far more than simple verbal threats or a grab-from-the-till and run. In the later case, sure, give him what he wants. If your life is being threatened, better to act than to wait and see what *might* happen, or to simply just "give him the ice cream." I think this is poor advice and the latter is frankly flippant.

    I stand behind the view that this is an example of a contextually appropriate, if imperfect, use of a wrist lock technique (and aikido), placing it in the framework of overall self defense, and more relevant than the inane and seemingly endless discussions of aikido versus streetfighters or BJJ.
    OK let me be clear, I said, "a little stupid and a lot of luck". I stand by that. I also agree that if you feel your life is being threatened doing anything is better than doing nothing and acting like the proverbial lamb to the slaughter. I accept your rebuke for "being flippant", but there is a degree of humour in the setting to my mind, albeit black humour. However, in context, as an aikido instructor with little experience of police procedure, but some with self defence and tactics, I would not recommend people "trying stuff out" unless they sincerely felt their life was under threat and they were past all other options. I can't second guess the guy, he was there, I was not.
    Why you disavow the advice to hand over your money is beyond me. Every situation is unique, is an assault on your possessions a blow to your ego that you can't walk away from?
    What about a verbal insult? Is that worth war? Please don't misunderstand me, I agree with protecting oneself and loved ones. I also agree that a home invasion usually means more than theft. You are applauding the use of half trained techniques in a situation that may not have deserved it. It turned out well, it could just as easily have turned out badly for many people. I respect your opinion, I just have a different one, and that's all they are: opinions.
    Consider fully , act decisively
    Alec Corper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itten View Post
    Why you disavow the advice to hand over your money is beyond me. Every situation is unique, is an assault on your possessions a blow to your ego that you can't walk away from?
    Probably because we go with the odds or our experiences where we see time and time again people getting shot after they've given their possessions over or worse, getting shot first then robbed.
    Tony Urena

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    I was a target of an attempted armed robbery. I just went off. I don't know about others but I didn't think anything. I really believe if I had THOUGHT I would have died. Too many martial arts types think too much.
    Ed Boyd

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    Alec

    I think you are being clear. You are also adding quite a bit not in context. No one said anything about "trying out" a half trained technique, highly doubt that was what was going through this guy's mind.

    I disavow the mindset of simply "handing over your money" because you continue to allow the initiative to remain with the bad guy. As Tony points out (and we are coming from years of police experience), someone stealing or asking for your money and someone pointing a gun at you are different things and we see different outcomes.

    This man had a gun pointed at him at near contact distance. He was already being assaulted. He responded to being assaulted. Had the situation been different, and the suspect come in and simply verbally threatened, or grabbed cash from the open til and ran, I would advise NOT resisting and NOT chasing the man. THAT would be a simple property crime.

    Suspect walks up, pointing a gun at him from a foot away, and threatening to shoot him is an imminent threat and should be responded to accordingly. I think he did a good job.

    We can never take the what ifs out of any of these things. Had he done nothing, simply acquiesced to being a victim, its possible - maybe likely - that everything would have turned out fine and no one would have been hurt. Physically at least.

    But in so doing he would have given all the initiative and all the responsibility for his safety over to the very man threatening him. Very few people realize this is exactly what they are doing when they comply with a criminal suspect.

    Had he done nothing and been shot, then the discussion would be different.

    Had he done nothing and been raped at gunpoint: same, same.

    You don't know. You can't ever know. Even when you do act you may not be certain. If you wait for certainty it may be too late. This is the major sticking point I have found with the civilian/martial arts self defense culture: hesitation, and a willingness to let others go way too far before acting, and rationalizing it in the aftermath.

    Its not ego, rather its not allowing another person to abuse you. Being a victim of a violent crime and and made to feel in fear of your life when a violent thug threatened you with a deadly weapon is the more relevant issue.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    I think we've got a huge cultural issue here and that's giving the context difference that Hissho alludes to: Itten, according to his profile, is in Holland. Hissho and TonyU are both US based and LEO related.

    From a European (UK, in my case) base - firearms are a rarity. When used they're often ( OK I need a citation here) for shock and awe - the follow through is mercifully absent. I get the impression (again, no defined sources) that this is different in the US. Now given "often shock and awe" is not the same as "always ..." there's obviously an argument about best approaches, but ...

    Having said which - no one has ever pointed a gun at me in anger and I've no desire to find out what it's like. But is different this side of the water.
    Giles Chamberlin
    http://www.jujutsu.org.uk

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    Well, firearms are used here (US) primarily for shock and awe as well.

    While to be sure there may be some LEGAL ramifications that have an effect on "self defense culture" from nation to nation, as it seems does occur with some countries requiring that defenders essentially be able only to respond to a violent act, I really don't think that firearms are specifically the case. I have seen the same sort of thinking when knives, other weapons, or when threatened with personal weapons (hands, feet, etc.)

    I think it is a difference in the kind of martial culture (martial arts culture) one inculcates, in themselves and in students.

    Make no mistake about it, had this man simply demanded and taken the money, things would be different. I would not fault this aikidoka for acting, still, but it would have been a matter of the guy taking his money and running. Been over that now and Nuff Said.

    That's not what happened. The man says he was approached and threatened at close quarters with the gun AFTER the guy got the money....hmmmm. Then he was assaulted (gun pointed at him) and threatened with being shot.

    I submit to you that the teaching in many schools, not just aikido schools (which in my experience have a very tortured relationship with violence), would have been to comply with this man even still, attempt to negotiate with him, etc. etc. Whether it was a knife, gun, or other threatening action. Its a hesitation based on the fact that not much of this is ever practiced realistically and virtually none is practiced in the modern context. Its fear because of unfamiliarity with real weapons. Its a fear of outcomes because we "don't know if it will work," and "what if it doesn't work."Its an ambiguity over the legal understanding of when and whether one can act...


    All that piles up, and these feelings are magnified by real stress. And in the moment, the student of self defense and martial arts has in many cases NOT been given the permission to act to defend themselves by their teacher, rather they have been dissuaded from acting with language such as "only as a last resort," "not to act foolishly," "they have not practiced enough," and even "if you can reach the wounded person inside by compassion you can turn aside their violence."

    Instead, act when you - and ONLY you - not your teacher, who is not in the room with you, not the responding police officer, not the prosecutor or the judge - feel that you are threatened sufficiently that action is necessary. If you instinctively feel the need to protect yourself - this aikidoka acted "instinctively" - then DO SO. You have to be reasonable - you can't treat every incident as a lethal threat - but what this guy did was absolutely reasonable and in fact with restraint considering he was being threatened with lethal force.

    When you wait, you are gambling. I re-iterate: the best you can get is that things "might" go well. When a man sticks a knife against your throat, demands all your money, and you decide to just hand it over, you are gambling that the money is all that he wants. Your odds may be pretty good that this is really all he wants, and you are playing those odds. You are at the same time leaving EVERYTHING up to him. HE decides whether your odds are good that day and you agree to go right along with him. Now, when he takes your money and then stabs you in the heart "just because," well the odds weren't in your favor that day. But hey, you did what you were trained to do: don't agitate him, give him the money, its just property and cash and can be replaced..... so good on you!

    Alternatively: the man does the same thing your sole focus is to look for the opportunity to turn the tables. To use your skill and training to end the threat that is occurring right now to your person and perhaps you loved ones. Comply, if you must but ONLY as a means to tactical advantage and not because "its just money."

    Don't give them the power to decide whether the odds are in your favor that day.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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