Jigen Ryu and Shorin Ryu

[len mccoy]

Hi Everyone,
I know this is going to be slightly controversial. Please feel free to disagree with me, just give me a reason you think I am wrong. Not the standard you cannot do that and you cannot understand why. Here goes.
A large number of people want to know more about specific koryu especially how techniques in koryu relate to arts they study. For a wide variety of reasons some of these same people are in extremely poor positions to drop what they are doing and do whatever it takes to study. In fact I would argue that ignoring family responsibilities is a type of self absorbed anti-budo. Such is life.
A large number of years ago I read Bushi Matsumura studied Jigen Ryu. That would make Jigen ryu having an influence over at least half the karate world. As we start to try and untangle the threads that make up our karate in addition to looking to China, native Okinawan sources and possibly even western sources we definitely want to look at Jigen Ryu. I remember reading an article by an Aikido Sensei named Tada who recommended people try Jigen Ryu Tategi-uchi (repetitively striking a post with a wooden stick). A little later someone who also posts here recommended every karateka should at least try a couple hundred rounds in a magazine article. (I am leaving name out in case this becomes unfriendly, up to you if you want to jump in). Anyway after some thought I cut a stick assumed me best imitation of Tonbo-no-kamae and got to work.
Observations 100 rounds you have to relax your shoulders, your body will make you.
You will smell like smoke
I couldn't go more than 500 in a row. Jigen ryu guys are tough.
Besides good exercise I also got experience targeting.This is a major issue when one first starts Okinawan weapons. You think I put my foot and hand where I want them surely my tonfa must be striking the right place. If you just do kata and kihon like many instuctors will push for safety reasons you really don't know how bad your targeting is.
I also think I gained a valuable self defense tool.
On the downside I am sure this sampling that I can do although safe probably doesn't scratch the surface of Jigen Ryu.
Those of you who make think I am way out of line let me ask you do you ever walk through a technique from a book for an art you haven't studied?
Special question for Chris Hellman. On your wonderful site (if you haven't been there you should look at it) you talk a lot about monkeys in martial arts terminology. Do you see anything special in Jigen Ryu using the word Enkyo (monkey scream) for it's kiai?
Respectfully,
Len McCoy

[hyaku]

Hi Everyone,

Special question for Chris Hellman. On your wonderful site (if you haven't been there you should look at it) you talk a lot about monkeys in martial arts terminology. Do you see anything special in Jigen Ryu using the word Enkyo (monkey scream) for it's kiai?
Respectfully,
Len McCoy

I can maybe answer that one. I was in Kagoshima doing embu with the Jigenryu for the Saigo Takamori Kinen. They invited me to practice at their heihosho for a day. To show me how the kiai worked Togo Sensei had me stand still and one of their top guys ran at me from a distance with a large branch using the kiai. It really is devastating even to someone who has been teaching kendo at a police dojo for years. It's either a matter of standing your ground or wearing pair a pampers.

[Ellis Amdur]

Len - I truly do not see what is controversial about your post. Tategi-uchi (and yokogi-uchi) were practices of far more schools than Jigen-ryu. They happen to have taken it to the ultimate. The only thing that would be controversial would be if you claimed to be doing Jigen-ryu. Of course, there are all kinds of nuances that you won't learn unless you entered the ryu. It's even possible that you might do something biomechanically wrong and damage yourself. It's even possible that your experimentation, rather than helping your karate, might hurt it. It's also possible that it vastly improves it.

Incorporation/imitation is only wrong when one claims that one is doing the thing imitated (or aped, to return to enkyo). But Jigen-ryu doesn't own a trademark on hitting trees.

Ellis Amdur

[len mccoy]

Well Ellis maybe I phrased it better this time or maybe e-budo is a friendlier crowd. I said something similar on a different board a couple years ago and got a lot of self training in sword arts is evil. Colin I like your story and I think it shows the limits of my approach. Whatever experiment I do I doubt I would be able to get anything close to experience you had.
Respectfully,
Len McCoy

[Chris Hellman]

Len – glad you like the blog.

As far as enkyo goes, I don't have any specific information on it (but you have piqued my interest, so I will keep my eyes open). It could just be a case of the high-pitched cry sounding something like a monkey screaming – Japanese monkeys have fairly high-pitched voices, and anyone living in rural Kyushu (or most other places other than the larger cities) would probably have been well-acquainted with monkeys and the noises they make. The onomatopoeic monkey noise learnt by most kids is kikii, normally said in a high-pitched voice... which although not sounding anything like enkyo does suggest that the idea of monkeys having high pitched voices is fairly well-entrenched in the culture.

Chris Hellman
http://www.ichijoji.blogspot.com

[Gibukai]

Hello,

I am not sure if you are referring to my article. If so, I would like to point out that I suggest the reader to try to hit a tree with a kind of a wooden sabre a couple of times in order to better understand physically the demands of Jigen-ryū’s tategi-uchi. I do not think by doing so one will understand the actual body mechanics of Jigen-ryū.

A slightly expanded version of my article is available in my English book:


Therein I cite what the Jigen-ryū says about its “kiai” (pp. 70-71).

Please bear in mind, that S. Matsumura actually learnt the “Ko Jigen-ryū”, an offspring of the Jigen-ryū (which I also point out in my writings).

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

[hyaku]

Hello,

I am not sure if you are referring to my article. If so, I would like to point out that I suggest the reader to try to hit a tree with a kind of a wooden sabre a couple of times in order to better understand physically the demands of Jigen-ryū’s tategi-uchi. I do not think by doing so one will understand the actual body mechanics of Jigen-ryū.

A slightly expanded version of my article is available in my English book:

Therein I cite what the Jigen-ryū says about its “kiai” (pp. 70-71).

Please bear in mind, that S. Matsumura actually learnt the “Ko Jigen-ryū”, an offspring of the Jigen-ryū (which I also point out in my writings).

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

Better still hit the tree with a long log. Jigen ryu do not use wooden sabres. Alex Bradshaw a member of the forum lives and works in Kagoshima and is a member of the Jigen Ryu under Togo Soke should anyone require more detailed information. Usually they no one can join if they are not in Kagoshima let alone a foreigner. They are a very friendly but closed community that do not consider themselves to be Japanese.

[Gibukai]

Hello,

(1) A. Bradshaw knows my text.

(2) Yes, indeed, I actually explain that they use mere wooden sticks as "wooden sabres" ...

Regards,

Henning Wittwer