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Thread: Juho adaptations - Maki Gote variation of sticking hands strike blocking

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    Default Juho adaptations - Maki Gote variation of sticking hands strike blocking

    For anyone interested. I had posted previously about adapting SK Juho from wrist grab versions to applying them from striking.
    IMO, the passive way they are trained in essential in order to understand the principles of using the take down.

    I don't see the methodology to go from striking to Juho trained in a manner that is consistent with the reality of fighting.

    This is a sticky hands blocking process to a variation on Maki Gote that I've been training with my students in a Chinese art. Ironically the majority of the Chinese art is training body structure and Internal Power, so it doesn't focus on application. So I'm having fun adapting the two together!
    https://youtu.be/Pnhipmk9PTs

    Gassho,
    Ryan

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    Ryan, this sounds interesting, but I think you need to re-read your post and help me clear up my confusion. There are some contradictory aspects which may just be typographical errors.

    First paragraph; Did you mean that you think the passive way "is essential"?

    Second paragraph; "Training to go from striking to Juho requires a methodology, one that is consistent with the reality of fighting. I'm not seeing that method being taught."

    Does the third paragraph indicate that you teach a Chinese Art and have adapted a method from that, to use with your Shorinji Kempo students, in a manner consistent with the aims mentioned in the second paragraph?

    Did I read it correctly? Am I just being the most irritating person around?
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    Ryan, this sounds interesting, but I think you need to re-read your post and help me clear up my confusion. There are some contradictory aspects which may just be typographical errors.

    First paragraph; Did you mean that you think the passive way "is essential"?

    Second paragraph; "Training to go from striking to Juho requires a methodology, one that is consistent with the reality of fighting. I'm not seeing that method being taught."

    Does the third paragraph indicate that you teach a Chinese Art and have adapted a method from that, to use with your Shorinji Kempo students, in a manner consistent with the aims mentioned in the second paragraph?

    Did I read it correctly? Am I just being the most irritating person around?
    Lol! no not irritating, I'm just not clear!

    Yes passive training, i.e. whereby someone grabs your wrist and feeds you a specific way is essential to train the technique in order to understand how the joint lock work and kuzushi (balance break) occurs. To be clear, other styles and systems define joint lock training in two ways. Passive being the way I just described, i.e. you partner isn't resisting and trying to escape. Active is basically full on randori.

    the video training is demo'ing somewhere in between passive and full active. It's a stage of controlled active. training this way I've pulled it off in sparring.

    By consistent with the reality of fighting... grappling attacks are generally not having someone seizing your wrists. For the most part takedowns using the arms are very hard to pull off in real or sport combative. Note arts like Muay Thai, MMA, or even western boxing people clinch at the head, shoulders, upper arms.

    So my question to myself was, I'm training these arm joint lock takedowns, how to make them work from a striking game?

    I've been a student of Shorinji Kempo, I'm semi-active now. In addition I've trained collegiate and greco-roman wrestling from grade school thru high school, other jujutsu styles, Judo ,etc. I don't teach Shorinji Kempo and don't present this in the Chinese art class as such. I respect my teachers. Note in video I say "Japanese Jujutsu". In the description I mention Shorinji Kempo because I want to promote the art and people should know where I got some of this from.

    Currently I'm also a student/low level instructor in a Chinese Art. The Chinese Art's training focuses primarily on what essentially is dirty boxing or clinch fighting to use Western language, i.e. the bridge from striking to grappling. So the strike blocking methodology is focuses on 'sticking' or always looking to gain that control. Shorinji Kempo blocking generally focuses on deflection to create openings. Deflection makes it harder to gain control. In fact I've had Shorinji Kempo Sensei tell me that the art does not seek to control like that.

    So in short I was looking at Maki Gote and saw that with some slight adjustment and playing with the sticking/blocking aspects of the Chinese art I was able to pull off the take down.

    Note in the video I'm explaining to others as I'm doing and I don't claim to be an expert, but when I'm not talking and focusing on sparring it can be done much smoother.

    Why I say 'variation' on Maki Gote -
    Maki Gote has my wrist grabbed in gyaku or basically my rear arm and not the lead. As I roll the hand grabbing my wrist and secure it with the other I turn to make my partner centripetally collapse on themselves. But its that rear arm that controls the lock.

    The variation is reading the timing of the incoming strikes by touch and I look to enter at the same time my partner withdraws his rear striking hand (basically taking the grabbing of wrist in gyaku paradigm and viewing it from the same striking and blocking arm). Where it differs from Maki Gote is the take down.

    I'm going to post now, cause e-budo timed out and booted me and I lost some paragraphs.. I'll follow up with more.

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    Default Anticipate withdrawing movement

    Gassho!

    This is not directly in response to what's shown in the video, but it's pertinent to the general topic: During last week's German Gasshuku one of the Japanese sensei (Satoh-sensei, Fukuoka Doin) showed us his take on go ju ittai techniques like Shita uke (geri) kote nage. He anticipates the attacker to withdraw the punch, therefore instead of trying to hook behind the fist at the extended position (Steve-san described this in detail in the related thread, if memory serves) he moves the front hand from the blocking movement (which is not a big deflecting movement) forwards, close to the attacker's body, where the withdrawing hand will end up (roughly the lower part of the upper arm) and grabs it there. I know it's hard to visualise a movement from a written description, but hopefully it's understandable!
    The most obvious advantage of this (to me) is that the attacker's hand can be grabbed in a more or less stationary position instead of trying to hook it 'from the air'.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Looked at your video, good.
    Actually I have seen/done this in almost exactly the same way in advanced Shorinji Kempo traininig.

    Shorinji Kempo principles include/cover also this although this exact way is not included in the Hokei.
    Hokei (meaning curriculum techniques) are just the basic ways of doing things.

    When you have learned the principles and forms from the Hokei you can get to the more advanced Shorinji Kempo.
    Ha in Shu - Ha - Ri
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    The most obvious advantage of this (to me) is that the attacker's hand can be grabbed in a more or less stationary position instead of trying to hook it 'from the air'.
    That's the only way I have ever been able to make something like that work in randoori. Of course, in a real fight most people are untrained and swinging, while the people who know something will almost always snap back. For me, juho is either something before the goho fight starts, or is the finish after someone has already been mostly disabled

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    So the strike blocking methodology is focuses on 'sticking' or always looking to gain that control. Shorinji Kempo blocking generally focuses on deflection to create openings. Deflection makes it harder to gain control. In fact I've had Shorinji Kempo Sensei tell me that the art does not seek to control like that.
    I like the look of what you're doing there - it's an interesting way of looking at the techniques. But I think it's a mistake to pigeonhole Shorinji Kempo so narrowly - as Kari-sensei mentioned, shu ha ri means that as long as the underlying principles are consistent then Shorinji Kempo can vary quite widely from practitioner to practitioner. Look at the difference in style between Mori-sensei and Aosaka-sensei, for example!

    I'd also argue that deflection can be useful for control - if the opponent is withdrawing exactly as they'd expect then they can return to a position of strength (I'd say that your uke in that video could probably get kagite if he tried by locking his elbow in) but were you to take some balance by deflecting to the side alongside the rest of the movement then you'd prevent that and have more control. The use of deflection to create openings is certainly true as far as pure goho goes, but it goes much further than that once you start exploring the inter-relation of goho and juho (and not just the specific syllabus stuff - try doing uchi uke zuki in a juho-like fashion, it's awesome! There's so much to explore beyond the kamokohyu) It's interesting that you've had sensei be so definitive on that aspect - I've seen and heard from several who advocate a similar expression to what you have shown (as well as a few who would go hard in the other direction!)

    Sorry if I seem argumentative - I reiterate that I think that what you're doing is a valuable way of looking at things, I just think that it is something that actually is explored within Shorinji Kempo and it's a shame you think otherwise because you're not getting to see that.

    Thanks to Jan for the reference to my earlier post in another thread - that saves me repeating myself!
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

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    Hi all,

    Sorry for my long delayed reply... I'm doing some home remodeling which is drawing all my attention. thanks for the responses, good to hear I'm not the only one exploring this.

    As for advanced training in SK doing this type of stuff... I've yet to see it. I guess it's something I've found disappointing in the SK curriculum. I understand that you need to walk beginners thru the basics prior to working on advanced stuff. But if advanced stuff is shown it gives a view of where the training is going.

    For example, I went to the World Taikai in Osaka and then Hombu.. Not once did the training groups have lower dan ranks train with upper dan ranks. All shodan and Ikkyu were together the whole time, which means everyone is relatively the same skill level. IMO there would have been value to have a session where Shodan is with all Sandan doing the same training so you get a view of where you're trying to get to.

    Also, I've seen very little 'experimentation' or randori in training that works technique outside the patterned curriculum. So I've had to work it on my own in other settings. Most 'sparring' in SK is based on point sparring, one tap get a point and you're separated. From what I've seen of it and in relation to actual fighting, I'd gladly take one of those hits to close in and finish the fight. But with that it's always a tightrope walk to train in a way that doesn't cause injury, but also works a sense of realism to the application.

    Bear in mind the video I posted was a 'training method' so there are definitely ways my partner could have responded and actually in sparring my partner would not have fallen for that, he's too good of an boxer for that!

    Thanks again, I will take your responses in consideration and keep training!

    Gassho
    Ryan

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