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  1. #1
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    Default Is this group so boring because anyone with something of interest to say is banned?

    I mean, how many times can one discuss the finer points of gyaku gote?

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    Forums peaked in their popularity around ten years ago, not just this one, but all bulletin boards/forums/discussion pages. The shift toward Facebook and Twitter took a lot of the traffic.

    I've always seen the forums as a friendly chat in a pub or cafe. There are people who come and go, there are regulars, there are the crusty old geezers in the corner who just seem to live there... some topics for discussion come around again and again, some in response to News or current affairs. When a newcomer arrives in the group they'll often kick-start a conversation that the regulars have been over too many times before. If it is given a fresh approach, or the participants are in the mood, then the conversation can be rewarding even for those oft-repeated tales. When someone comes in with a chip on their shoulder, or has some agenda they'd like to pursue, they may get a variety of reactions, from being ostracised, to being picked up by the scruff of the neck and ejected by the Landlord.

    A really good chat can often benefit from some strong-willed, opinionated members who take up positions that invite a reaction. Sometimes that just becomes a dreary bore. When someone makes a nuisance of themselves in my local pub, they may end up being barred. They'll have to go and find another pub somewhere. Things may get quiet for a while and some of the remaining members will lament that "fings ain't the same no more". Oh well, that's life. Best to hope that the next batch of fresh new blood can bring some excitement with them.

    I don't think that being banned is a medal of honour to show "I had something of interest to say". I think that is the excuse that people give themselves to justify being obstinate. Consequently, those who are least able to listen, or adjust to the audience, end up with the least listeners. Preaching to a few goats on a dusty hilltop isn't really going to get the message across, if you want to be heard then you may need to make compromises.

    But maybe that's just me. To misquote the Steppenwolf song, I was always "Born to be Mild".
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Having said that, I think Dirk might have some particular topics that he would like to see discussed, but feels they may be deemed "inappropriate" by the Forum Moderators. Perhaps some carefully worded threads would allow those topics to be raised. Or is "carefully worded" not enough? One could always try...
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    I mean, how many times can one discuss the finer points of gyaku gote?
    Well, for me, gyaku gote is of interest because in the martial art I practice we do not use this name, though, knowing Japanese, I can understand what it means.

    Sometimes, I am reluctant to post in a forum like this because it is perceived as being closed: a forum where non-SK practitioners are not made very welcome. However, the perception of being closed operates on two levels: a general level, of SK vs. other budo; and a particular level, of SK as a 'political' art, in which one particular 'brand' is considered to be authentic and favored over others.

    That said, (1) E-Budo has become more collectively managed since the ownership changed. All the senior moderators are also part-owners and decisions to ban people are taken only after extensive discussions, and (2) forum moderators usually (but not always) have some measure of expertise in the relevant art and this is of value when moderating a particular forum in a general arena like E-Budo. However, in moderating forums they are not expected to operate fiefdoms where they are the resident daimyo.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Dirk, you're right, many people with interesting things to say have been banned. However, unbanning them would probably not lead to any great reinvigorating of this forum. I prefer to discuss stuff on my facebook page these days, which is obviously less public, but also less anodyne.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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    Well, on that note I guess it is time to inject some fresh blood into this forum, though unfortunately, I may not be exciting!

    Hi All, my name is Steve. I live in Tokyo and just recently (a couple of weeks ago) took up Shorinji Kempo. I originally came to Tokyo in 2000 and studied Yohinkan Aikido, but have been out of martial arts for a little over 10 years. My fat, middle aged glutes are screaming at me, but I am enjoying what I am learning so far.

    My Shorinji Kempo club has a kids class (that my son is participating in) and an adult class where everyone but me is Yudansha, and I have the blessing of working with a friendly, knowledgeable group of kenshi.

    It is surprising to me that after all this time, my Aikido habits and form emerge naturally in my techniques, so I have a ton to unlearn as I want to do things the Shorinji Kempo way, but many movements and especially Joho technique bear more than a passing resemblance to techniques I am familiar with.

    Cheers,

    Steve van Maanen

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    Hello Steve,

    Welcome to E-Budo. I will be interested to know what you are having to unlearn as you advance in your SK training.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Hi Peter and thanks for the warm welcome,

    As I progress I'll let you know. For now it is very basic things such as body movements. I tend to keep my weight more forward on the front foot when moving, and my forward foot angled out. From my extremely limited experience in Shorinji Kempo, I need to keep my weight back for the movements we were performing. Ukemi is also different. Once I have a few more months under my belt I'll be able to provide better observations. Right now I don't even have the terminology to discuss specifically what we were doing.

    Cheers,

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by jailess View Post
    Hi Steve, welcome to E-Budo. I've been a Sleeper Kenshi a long time myself!

    I'm interested in your statement that the movements are particularly different in SK compared to Aikido, because I've always viewed them as reasonably similar in terms of techniques, if not movement. I acknowledge that the Kendo-style stance of Aikido is dissimilar to our more varied stances, but the techniques I always saw as the same thing seen through different lenses.

    In fact, I've always been a little jealous of (Aikikai) Aikido's grouping of techniques into variants of Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, etc. whilst I have to deal with 'this is Gyaku gote, only here the opponent's left bumcheek is 5mm higher than before', and other variants I am forced to learn as I proceed up the Dan grades.

    As for Ukemi... IMHO, anyone who isn't doing it in a way that can be done on concrete (i.e. the Parkour guys' way) ain't doing it right.
    Aikido's grouping of techniques into Ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo are groupings based on a unifying principle of movement.

    Shorinji Kempo 's Juho comes from Hakko Ryu, which is an offshoot of Daito Ryu, which in turn is the basis of Aikido.

    Gyaku gote, kote nuki, oshi gote, Maki Gote and more all share the same root principles around footwork.

    Some interesting research, read Ellis Amdur's book Hidden in Plain Sight. The Daito Ryu opening of the hand upon being grabbed is kagite shuho, but is named differently in Daito Ryu. Many modern aikido practioners no longer do this and it is a training method to connect the point of contact to your center and train 6 direction energy. Hence you pull or push when grabbing, the internal aspect that SK mostly ignores is you can use that pull/push with kagite shuho to engage what the Chinese call dantian and mingmen.

    Aiki is internal arts training according to some and modern aikido has it all wrong and doesn't train properly.

    Ukemi will seem different in that SK Juho tends to be a centripetal action to cause kuzushi or balance break. This aligns with Daito Ryu I've cross trained with. Centripetal can be more brutal because you're limiting the escape path. At the same time the waza can be modified for more centrifugal takedowns, which allows for easier ukemi, i.e. Aikido method.

    Gassho
    Ryan
    Last edited by ryama23; 5th August 2015 at 20:18. Reason: Add more specifics

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    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    Shorinji Kempo 's Juho comes from Hakko Ryu, which is an offshoot of Daito Ryu, which in turn is the basis of Aikido.
    According to Kaiso, it comes from Chinese martial arts. Are there sources that prove otherwise, since this was stated as fact, rather than opinion?

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Hi Jan,
    Stanley Pranin did an interesting interview with Ryuho Okuyama (Hakko Ryu Nidai Soke) a few years back (you can probably read it in the Aikido Journal), where he discussed Kaiso’s experience studying Hakko Ryu before founding Shorinji Kempo. Apparently Kaiso achieved a Ni Dan in the art. This is pretty common knowledge in Japan, but I’ve found that most ShorinjiKempo sensei here either dismiss the influence outright, or gloss over it somehow.

    As someone with some experience in ShorinjiKempo (5th dan) and Hakko Ryu (1st dan), it is my personal opinion that ShoriniKempo Juho and Seiho were strongly influenced by Hakko Ryu. Some of the techniques look identical. However, the manner in which they are practiced and applied are quite different. I think Kaiso took what he learned in HakkoRyu and simply developed it in a different direction.

    For what it’s worth, I found HakkoRyu philosophically and technically fascinating, I would have continued if I didn’t move to an “inaka” area without a dojo.

    Cheers,
    Mike Johnson

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    Gassho!

    Thanks for the answer and especially for the interview source!
    This version is by and large what I've heard several times before, namely the claim from Hakko Ryu that Kaiso incorporated their techniques into SK. It would still be great to have a source from the other side concerning this. AFAIK, this claim had already been made during Kaiso's life time, therefore I'm assuming there must be something in his writings or an interview etc. dealing with it – probably in Japanese only.
    I've also come across similar claims from other styles with far less (possible) merit over the years.

    As to the technical side of things, similarity doesn't say much, unfortunately. As the common saying goes, a wrist only bends in so many ways. Aikido uses basically the same lines, so do Hapkido and several other styles from what I hear (and occasionally see). It seems quite unreasonable that the same thing couldn't be found in Chinese MA.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Default Addendum

    This is probably the interview in question. The story is second hand and doesn't come across as very convincing, I'm afraid. It would really be great to have first hand sources from people who were there at the time!

    JL
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Default Yes we can!

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    It seems quite unreasonable that the same thing couldn't be found in Chinese MA.
    Saerch for chin na (qin na) to see many similarities and common principles

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-59-hs0MpHI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6XmOUsArPE
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Gassho!

    Thanks for the answer and especially for the interview source!
    This version is by and large what I've heard several times before, namely the claim from Hakko Ryu that Kaiso incorporated their techniques into SK. It would still be great to have a source from the other side concerning this. AFAIK, this claim had already been made during Kaiso's life time, therefore I'm assuming there must be something in his writings or an interview etc. dealing with it – probably in Japanese only.
    I've also come across similar claims from other styles with far less (possible) merit over the years.

    As to the technical side of things, similarity doesn't say much, unfortunately. As the common saying goes, a wrist only bends in so many ways. Aikido uses basically the same lines, so do Hapkido and several other styles from what I hear (and occasionally see). It seems quite unreasonable that the same thing couldn't be found in Chinese MA.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Of course histories can be debated in many ways. Personally I don't mind if parts of Shorinji Kempo don't all come from Chinese sources. Having trained in both Chinese and Japanese arts, the Shorinji Kempo method of training Qin Na (i.e. joint locking and seizing) is not similar to other Chinese systems that I've seen, but I'm sure there are some where it is.

    What I mean by that in particular is it's not the technical aspect as to how a joint locks, but the method of how you 'get' there to applying the lock in the first place.

    Jujutsu from the Japanese technical side tend to learn the locks from a passive means, i.e. someone seizes your wrist, then you apply the lock or takedown technique. This seems historically a result of the samurai culture - seizing the sword hand before the draw, etc.

    Additionally the method of teaching it - memorization of technique of various types and practicing them. Very Japanese.

    Chinese methods are body centric where by the focus is on a body method form and movement that can flow into a variety of technique. Sticking quality of the hands to learn when to seize and when to let go.

    Hapkido has Daito Ryu roots as does Aikido and IMO Shorinji. The Kyohon has pictures of people practicing the Juho wearing hakama from kneeling position - that is not Chinese.

    Gassho,
    Ryan

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