Likes Likes:  22
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Sport Jujutsu - is it a Oxymoron?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Somewhere in the Americas
    Posts
    15
    Likes (received)
    1

    Exclamation Sport Jujutsu - is it a Oxymoron?

    In respect to the thread concerning the question "BJJ - is it really jujutsu?", I like to open this discussion in a rather objective tone.

    Jujutsu, as we know, is one of the disciplines in the bujutsu bugei used by the Samurai. When the Meiji-era began in 1868, its use from approximately 100 ryu were outlawed from use in Japan. What turned out to be a martial that concentrates on killing methods, it has relegated to a more civilian/practised method for physical strength.

    Fast forward to the events that shaped Kano jujutsu or better known as Kodokan Judo, I have stumbled into this terminology that was popularized by John Danaher in his book "mastering jujitsu" back in 2003.

    To make my intro short, my point in opening this thread is simple: its to point out that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TERM CALLED SPORT JUJUTSU!! It is an Oxymoron and by definition, a combat-sport (hence sport) cannot be linked into a non-sporting martial art such as Jujutsu!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Blue Ridge, Texas
    Posts
    2,000
    Likes (received)
    125

    Default

    Welcome to e-budo!

    I've personally never heard of the term "sport jujutsu" myself, so I looked it up. Looks like some organization (the JJIF?) has created competition rules for their own form of jujutsu. Therefore, it seems to me that your basic premise is in error. There is indeed a term called "sport jujutsu".

    Jujutsu, 柔術, as we know, is simply a descriptive phrase referring to Japanese unarmed arts. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a strict definition of what constitutes jujutsu. For that matter, the Japanese language precludes strict definitions for just about anything.

    Now you could make arguments over the fact that "sport jujutsu" has no basis in traditional Japanese arts, or that "sport jujutsu" is ineffective or useless for the original use of jujutsu. You can argue that it shouldn't exist, but you can't argue that it doesn't exist, since those actually doing it would disagree.

    So, do you have an alternate point, since your original point seems to be in error.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  3. Likes Brian Owens, Robert Carver, mkrueger, cxt liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    34
    Likes (received)
    19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post

    When the Meiji-era began in 1868, its use from approximately 100 ryu were outlawed from use in Japan.
    Sources? I've never heard that jujutsu ryuha were outlawed?

  5. Likes cxt liked this post
  6. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Somewhere in the Americas
    Posts
    15
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    Welcome to e-budo!

    I've personally never heard of the term "sport jujutsu" myself, so I looked it up. Looks like some organization (the JJIF?) has created competition rules for their own form of jujutsu. Therefore, it seems to me that your basic premise is in error. There is indeed a term called "sport jujutsu".

    Jujutsu, 柔術, as we know, is simply a descriptive phrase referring to Japanese unarmed arts. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a strict definition of what constitutes jujutsu. For that matter, the Japanese language precludes strict definitions for just about anything.

    Now you could make arguments over the fact that "sport jujutsu" has no basis in traditional Japanese arts, or that "sport jujutsu" is ineffective or useless for the original use of jujutsu. You can argue that it shouldn't exist, but you can't argue that it doesn't exist, since those actually doing it would disagree.

    So, do you have an alternate point, since your original point seems to be in error.
    - Who are those ryuha that were doing "sport jujutsu" during the Samurai period? Do you have any information on that? Don't tell me I have to search the forum since you're telling me something I would have to learn.

  7. Likes cxt liked this post
  8. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,227
    Likes (received)
    118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    - Who are those ryuha that were doing "sport jujutsu" during the Samurai period?
    He never said there were any ryuha doing "sport jujutsu" during the Samurai period. Don't put words in other people's mouths.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  9. Likes cxt liked this post
  10. #6
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Blue Ridge, Texas
    Posts
    2,000
    Likes (received)
    125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    - Who are those ryuha that were doing "sport jujutsu" during the Samurai period? Do you have any information on that? Don't tell me I have to search the forum since you're telling me something I would have to learn.
    Greetings sir,
    I never once mentioned anything about "the samurai period". Not really sure why you feel that the term 'jujutsu' should necessarily relate to a specific period. It is simply a description. If you wish to discuss koryu jujutsu, then you'll need to name individual ryuha that we can talk about, although my history of specific ryuha is pretty slim. I feel like we're not really understanding what each other has to say. Perhaps you can clarify your original point?
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  11. Likes mkrueger, cxt liked this post
  12. #7
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    62
    Likes (received)
    16

    Default

    While the OP has been banned... I wanted to address the usage of the term "sport jiu-jitsu" (note I'm not saying "sport jujutsu").

    There have been some discussions going on within BJJ communities over self-defense BJJ versus competition-focused BJJ. The term "sport jiu-jitsu" seems to have grown in usage to refer to competition focused training. For example, working within the IBJJF rules there are a variety of different "sport" strategies a person can use to score points, gain "advantages" all under the aegis of a "no striking" rule and a time limit to rounds.

    Obviously, if one is training for "self-defense" the conditions of winning a high-stress combative incident can be different. For example, if I can just survive not getting knocked out long enough for the cops to arrive... I've effectively achieved a "win" condition from a self-defense standpoint.

    Thus one can apply the skillset of BJJ to train for two very different situations. Even within the BJJ community there is not consensus on the usage of the term but I think it points to a bit of an identity crisis that their community is facing as it continues to grow and evolve.

    I suspect this is what the OP was referring to.

    Given this is the koryu bujutsu sub-forum for jujutsu I am of the impression that the usage of the term is actually irrelevant to this sub-forum.

  13. Likes cxt liked this post
  14. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    573
    Likes (received)
    17

    Default

    I find it curious that people get caught up in terminology, and in most instances think that it is a western affectation, especially related to Martial Arts.

    Around the turn of the 20th Century most people called all Japanese grappling Ju Jutsu (Ju Jitsu, Jiu Jitsu, etc.). Kano originally called his style Jiu Jitsu as did most of those who helped bring it to the West.

    I would be the first to admit that there is stuff being called jujutsu today, that I don't consider to be real jujutsu, but what is real jujutsu? Is it only a koryu style (of which there are very few still extant), or something that only teaches self defence? Is there room for a sportive element in an otherwise combative style?

    I definitely think that jujutsu is primarily combative, koryu styles have limited practical use today, but a good practitioner will be able to adapt what he has learnt to today's weapons and environments. Many of the modern jujutsu styles did exactly that, they took what they (or their instructors) knew and adapted it, does that mean that they are no longer 'real' jujutsu?

    I do not accept that 'Sport Jujutsu' is an oxymoron, but I also don't think that a style that is 100% sportive should call itself jujutsu. But that's just me! )

    Regards

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  15. Likes Brian Owens, cxt liked this post
  16. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    1,394
    Likes (received)
    84

    Default

    I mistakenly hit a "like" on the Judo Researchers post of 30, July 17:14.

    Would like to remove it but do not see that as an option.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  17. Likes Tripitaka of AA, mkrueger liked this post
  18. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Harrogate, North Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    4,232
    Likes (received)
    97

    Default

    I have mistakenly activated a "Like" function on the post of Mr cxt. It was intended to be a "high five", or a , but it ended up with a public display of affection that I'm not comfortable with. As much as I "like" Mr cxt, I'm not sure that I wish for my feelings to be that public. Perhaps the "like" button could be supplemented with a few others in order to get a more accurate assessment of people's feelings. I propose the following;
    Adore
    Admire
    Like
    Respect
    Acknowledge
    Tolerate
    Ignore
    Reject
    Dislike
    Heckle
    Hate
    Denounce

    There are, of course, those other forums where creative people enjoy finding just the right gif or jpeg to catch the emotion. One of my all-time favourites is the one of Donald Sutherland pointing and screaming, from "The Invasion of the Bodysnatchers", usually captioned with something about trolls....



    I get sad when I see how quiet the forums are these days.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  19. Likes mkrueger liked this post
  20. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,227
    Likes (received)
    118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    ...I get sad when I see how quiet the forums are these days.
    If one's words are no better than silence, I prefer silence.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  21. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    573
    Likes (received)
    17

    Default

    Sorry, none of the administrator tools allow me to un-like a post. I'll see if any of the other administrators know if there's a way to do it.

    As for being quiet, I agree, but like Brian I'm happy that we don't get the flood of rubbish some of the forums get, but am always willing to discuss stuff, so let's see if we can think of some topics.

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  22. Likes mkrueger, pgsmith liked this post
  23. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    17
    Likes (received)
    2

    Cool

    OK, I come on about once a week these days. I just saw this thread and in 15 posts the OP got banned. Was it something in another thread or didhe engage in some PM no-no's?
    With respect,
    Mitch Saret

  24. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Harrogate, North Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    4,232
    Likes (received)
    97

    Default

    He was banned from Budoseek for refusing to comply with their Real Name rule. That may be the case here, but I do not know. He seemed to be familiar with being banned.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  25. Likes mkrueger liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. Oxymoron?
    By joe yang in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 30th July 2015, 07:33
  2. just sport?
    By sheb in forum Shorinji Kempo
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 9th March 2008, 19:55
  3. Sport?
    By luar in forum Shorinji Kempo
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 31st July 2003, 19:01
  4. Drug use in sport
    By Steve Williams in forum Budo and the Body
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 4th December 2000, 09:58
  5. Judo as a Sport
    By MarkF in forum Judo
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 28th October 2000, 10:04

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •