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Thread: Kinds of Kihon

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    Default Kinds of Kihon

    Gassho,

    Chapter 3, Section 6 of the Tokuhon contains a long list of basics techniques, some of which remain a mystery to me after many years of practice. For example, there are 6 types of furi zuki listed. Maybe at some point I have seen them all and just don't know that they had a distinctive name but I suspect there are some I have not seen before, e.g., juji furi zuki. Does anyone have a key to this list, or notes on each technique they would be willing to share?

    In the interest of getting the conversation going, here are my notes on the 5 types of hiji ate. Any comments or corrections?

    1. Uwa hiji ate - swinging the elbow in an upward arc, as if doing an uppercut punch but using the elbow rather than fist. Striking surface is lower arm part of elbow. Hand is in a fist.
    2. Yoko hiji ate - thrusting the elbow to the side in a straight line. Striking surface is the upper arm part of elbow. Hand is open, turning palm up. Used after sankaku nuki to strike body.
    3. Uchi hiji ate - swinging the elbow in an inward arc. Striking surface is lower arm part of elbow. Hand is in a fist. Used to strike head when in a clinch or a choke.
    4. Shita hiji ate - thrusting the elbow downward in a straight line. Striking surface is the upper arm part of elbow. Used when attacker's head is down, as when grappling with arms around waist. Hand is open or closed?
    5. Ushiro hiji ate - thrusting the elbow to the back in a straight line, very similar to yoko hiji ate. Striking surface is the upper arm part of elbow. Hand is open, turning palm up. Used when grabbed from behind to strike body.

    It seems like there should be another version of hiji ate in which you twist the body to swing the elbow in a backward arc to strike the head of someone grabbing from behind. Does this version have a different name?

    Thanks!
    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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    Gassho Gary

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    In the interest of getting the conversation going, here are my notes on the 5 types of hiji ate. Any comments or corrections?

    1. Uwa hiji ate - swinging the elbow in an upward arc, as if doing an uppercut punch but using the elbow rather than fist. Striking surface is lower arm part of elbow. Hand is in a fist.
    2. Yoko hiji ate - thrusting the elbow to the side in a straight line. Striking surface is the upper arm part of elbow. Hand is open, turning palm up. Used after sankaku nuki to strike body.
    3. Uchi hiji ate - swinging the elbow in an inward arc. Striking surface is lower arm part of elbow. Hand is in a fist. Used to strike head when in a clinch or a choke.
    4. Shita hiji ate - thrusting the elbow downward in a straight line. Striking surface is the upper arm part of elbow. Used when attacker's head is down, as when grappling with arms around waist. Hand is open or closed?
    5. Ushiro hiji ate - thrusting the elbow to the back in a straight line, very similar to yoko hiji ate. Striking surface is the upper arm part of elbow. Hand is open, turning palm up. Used when grabbed from behind to strike body.

    It seems like there should be another version of hiji ate in which you twist the body to swing the elbow in a backward arc to strike the head of someone grabbing from behind. Does this version have a different name?
    I would pretty much agree on your description of the different hiji ate, except all my notes and how I have been taught it is always with open hand.
    For uwa hiji ate 上肘当 it also says in the Kyohan that one use it against mika zuki 三日月 or suigetsu 水月. There is also a picture of Kaiso showing it:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    Chapter 3, Section 6 of the Tokuhon contains a long list of basics techniques, some of which remain a mystery to me after many years of practice. For example, there are 6 types of furi zuki listed. Maybe at some point I have seen them all and just don't know that they had a distinctive name but I suspect there are some I have not seen before, e.g., juji furi zuki. Does anyone have a key to this list, or notes on each technique they would be willing to share?
    For the furi zuki here is a short explanation of each:
    1. age furi zuki 上振突 - furi zuki diagonally up against mikazuki
    2. sage furi zuki 下げ振突 - furi zuki diagonally downward against the neck
    3. yoko furi zuki 横振突 - furi zuki from the side like in suigetsu gaeshi
    4. kaeshi furi zuki 返振突 - furi zuki that hit with ura ken, big movement in the shoulder, not the elbow
    5. jūji furi zuki 十字振突 - double furi zuki with one fist, sage furi zuki - kaeshi furi zuki = tasuki gake
    6. ushiro furi zuki 後振突 - furi zuki against an attacker closely behind oneself


    I hope that helps, if something is unclear let me know.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    1. Uwa hiji ate - swinging the elbow in an upward arc, as if doing an uppercut punch but using the elbow rather than fist. Striking surface is lower arm part of elbow. Hand is in a fist.
    This is how I've always done this one. Interesting to see an alternative (correct!) version as Anders describes. I must get hold of a Kyohan one day

    4. Shita hiji ate - thrusting the elbow downward in a straight line. Striking surface is the upper arm part of elbow. Used when attacker's head is down, as when grappling with arms around waist. Hand is open or closed?
    I've usually seen this as more of an over-arm movement, striking over and down with the forearm part of the elbow to allow more trunk power (kind of like the ending of juji gote as you crank the lock on). Again, interesting to hear how wrong I've been!
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

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    Gassho Anders,

    Thank you for your comments on hiji ate. I should have looked at the Kyohan before posting (of course it would help if I would invest the time in learning how to read it). It's too bad there aren't pictures of all of these techniques in there. Of course, I have to defer to Kaiso on the correct way to do uwa hiji ate!

    It seems like there should be another version of hiji ate in which you twist the body to swing the elbow in a backward arc to strike the head of someone grabbing from behind. Does this version have a different name?
    Any thoughts on this question? I was shown this version as part of hagai jime. It seems very different from what I usually think of as ushiro hiji ate. BTW - has hagai jime disappeared from the new curriculum?

    I think I have a lot of questions regarding furi zuki:

    1. What would the call the version that we do from gyaku in tai gamae? It's not exactly age furi zuki because the defender's shoulder is in the way. Is is yoko?

    2.
    kaeshi furi zuki 返振突 - furi zuki that hit with ura ken, big movement in the shoulder, not the elbow
    Is the difference between uraken uchi and kaeshi furi zuki how much it comes from the elbow vs. the shoulder? Is there a situation that you can describe that would use this - e.g. the kaeshi follows what?

    3.
    jūji furi zuki 十字振突 - double furi zuki with one fist, sage furi zuki - kaeshi furi zuki = tasuki gake
    I think this description helped me a little to understand kaeshi furi zuki. So this is really two strikes - the attacker rotates to the inside to strike with sage furi zuki, which I presume misses, and then rotates in the opposite direction to strike with kaeshi furi zuki. And the whole thing is also called tasuki gake?

    4.
    ushiro furi zuki 後振突 - furi zuki against an attacker closely behind oneself
    I can't picture this one. Does it use uraken or is is somehow hiraken and nai sho?

    Thanks!
    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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    Gassho Steve,

    Thanks for your comments as well. Maybe someday they will add our version of uwa hiji ate to the Kyohan.

    I've usually seen this as more of an over-arm movement, striking over and down with the forearm part of the elbow to allow more trunk power (kind of like the ending of juji gote as you crank the lock on).
    I am going to have to try this!
    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    Gassho Anders,

    Thank you for your comments on hiji ate. I should have looked at the Kyohan before posting (of course it would help if I would invest the time in learning how to read it). It's too bad there aren't pictures of all of these techniques in there. Of course, I have to defer to Kaiso on the correct way to do uwa hiji ate!
    Yes, would be great if the Kyohan had more photos, and more explanations, in many cases it doesn't provide a very detailed explanation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    It seems like there should be another version of hiji ate in which you twist the body to swing the elbow in a backward arc to strike the head of someone grabbing from behind. Does this version have a different name?
    Any thoughts on this question? I was shown this version as part of hagai jime. It seems very different from what I usually think of as ushiro hiji ate. BTW - has hagai jime disappeared from the new curriculum?
    I don't think I have seen any furi zuki as that one you describe. In the case of hagai jime I have seen ushiro kagi zuki. And hagai jimi is still there, godan kamoku no 33.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    I think I have a lot of questions regarding furi zuki:

    1. What would the call the version that we do from gyaku in tai gamae? It's not exactly age furi zuki because the defender's shoulder is in the way. Is is yoko?
    In the Kyohan the yoko is explained as the type used in suigetsu gaeshi, if the shoulder is in the way I would go with sage furi zuki.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    2.
    kaeshi furi zuki 返振突 - furi zuki that hit with ura ken, big movement in the shoulder, not the elbow
    Is the difference between uraken uchi and kaeshi furi zuki how much it comes from the elbow vs. the shoulder? Is there a situation that you can describe that would use this - e.g. the kaeshi follows what?
    Yes, more with shoulder movement compared to regular uraken.
    See next reply.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    3.
    jūji furi zuki 十字振突 - double furi zuki with one fist, sage furi zuki - kaeshi furi zuki = tasuki gake
    I think this description helped me a little to understand kaeshi furi zuki. So this is really two strikes - the attacker rotates to the inside to strike with sage furi zuki, which I presume misses, and then rotates in the opposite direction to strike with kaeshi furi zuki. And the whole thing is also called tasuki gake?
    Yes, two strikes, quite common in embu when the opponent do kusshin on the first, and often some other counter on the second one (the kaeshi furi zuki).
    Tasuki gake was a new word for me when I first heard it, but here is a short explanation from a dictionary: tasuki gake たすき掛け (n,vs) tucking up the sleeves of a kimono with a tasuki

    I did a quick image search on google and these where some of the first to show:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    So the strikes write the same X pattern in the air, if you understand what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    4.
    ushiro furi zuki 後振突 - furi zuki against an attacker closely behind oneself
    I can't picture this one. Does it use uraken or is is somehow hiraken and nai sho?
    I would say with hira ken.


    There are quite bit written on the different kinds of furi zuki it in Kyohan, we would need a fluent reader like Yoshi Karahashi to get a better and quicker explanation, but I will see what I can manage (it will take me some time, and sometimes my skills in understanding are not enough).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    Thanks!
    No problem.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    I don't think I have seen any furi zuki as that one you describe. In the case of hagai jime I have seen ushiro kagi zuki. And hagai jimi is still there, godan kamoku no 33.
    I assume you meant hiji ate rather than furi zuki. The way I was shown it, from hagai jime shuho, the defender turns, rotating the shoulder back to strike the side of the attacker's face with the elbow. But I could see how ushiro kagi zuki would work as well.

    Hagai jime seems to be missing from the List of Techniques by Ken Family and Rank in the back of the Yudansha Kamoku. But you are correct that I missed it when I looked though the 5th Dan curriculum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    In the Kyohan the yoko is explained as the type used in suigetsu gaeshi, if the shoulder is in the way I would go with sage furi zuki.
    I was thinking of the attack for soto oshi uke zuki. I took a look at the kamoku, and saw that it refers to the attack as yoko kagi zuki. But sage kagi zuki may make more sense there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    Yes, two strikes, quite common in embu when the opponent do kusshin on the first, and often some other counter on the second one (the kaeshi furi zuki).
    Tasuki gake was a new word for me when I first heard it, but here is a short explanation from a dictionary: tasuki gake たすき掛け (n,vs) tucking up the sleeves of a kimono with a tasuki

    So the strikes write the same X pattern in the air, if you understand what I mean.
    Very interesting and it makes sense, although I am not quite sure why a combination of these two strikes requires its own name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    I would say with hira ken.


    There are quite bit written on the different kinds of furi zuki it in Kyohan, we would need a fluent reader like Yoshi Karahashi to get a better and quicker explanation, but I will see what I can manage (it will take me some time, and sometimes my skills in understanding are not enough).
    I will look forward to finding out more here. You have already filled in several of the blank spaces in my kihon notes!
    Last edited by Gary Dolce; 28th December 2015 at 03:15.
    Gary Dolce
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    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    I assume you meant hiji ate rather than furi zuki. The way I was shown it, from hagai jime shuho, the defender turns, rotating the shoulder back to strike the side of the attacker's face with the elbow. But I could see how ushiro kagi zuki would work as well.
    I misread that. I think I understand how you should do it. In the Kyohan there is a photo showing ushiro kagi zuki, and it is a bit hard to tell, but the situation shown is at least similar to if it is not hagai jime that the attacker is doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    Hagai jime seems to be missing from the List of Techniques by Ken Family and Rank in the back of the Yudansha Kamoku. But you are correct that I missed it when I looked though the 5th Dan curriculum.
    Yes, it is not included in the hokei overview (where they are listed in their respective kenkei) since it isn't actually a hokei, it is a shuho (formally the shuho name is hagai shuho, and in the kamoku it is listed as "hagai jime to shuho", hagai jime being the attack. Gary I guess knows this, but most kenshi might not have practised this technique). The Kyohan page number that is shown in the kamoku for hagai jime to shuho is referring to a page that lists the seven different shuho we have.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    I was thinking of the attack for soto oshi uke zuki. I took a look at the kamoku, and saw that it refers to the attack as yoko kagi zuki. But sage kagi zuki may make more sense there.
    The kamoku list the attack for soto oshi uke zuki, as well as uchi oshi uke zuki as yoko furi zuki, I guess you misstyped "kagi" instead of "furi"?
    I hadn't looked at the kamoku that it specified the furi zuki as yoko fuiri zuki, thought it was just "furi zuki".


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    Very interesting and it makes sense, although I am not quite sure why a combination of these two strikes requires its own name.
    Well, we have "juji geri" so why not.
    Everything in the Kyohan and SK are not always consistent, like some hokei have their katate/ryote versions listed separately and some just as different variations of the same hokei and so on, and we can't ask Kaiso why any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    I will look forward to finding out more here. You have already filled in several of the blank spaces in my kihon notes!
    Happy to help out when I have the time.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    It has been a busy few weeks for me, but I am finally getting back to my study of the kihon waza in the Tokuhon. I have a few more questions about hand strikes.

    1. Is sugu zuki simply choku zuki (straight punch) with a vertical fist? Is neji zuki the same thing but with the fist turned diagonally or horizontally?

    2. Are morote zuki and morote uchi the same thing? I understand they both involve striking with both hands at the same time. I understand that morote uchi is done with the hands clasped together. Is morote zuki done with the hands separate (2 separate punches done simultaneously)? Are these straight strikes or circular ones? I have never seen either done in Shorinji Kempo and am very curious what kind of body motion is used.

    3. How is wa zuki different from kagi zuki?

    4. Are shuto giri and wanto giri the same motion except shuto uses the edge of the hand and wanto uses the edge of the forearm?

    5. I have a hard time picturing how hira ken can be used in a cutting motion in hira ken giri. I think of hira ken (inside of fist) as a large flat surface not amenable to a cutting strike, unlike shuto or wanto.

    I appreciate input from any Kenshi familiar with these techniques.

    Thanks!
    Gary
    Gary Dolce
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    5. I have a hard time picturing how hira ken can be used in a cutting motion in hira ken giri. I think of hira ken (inside of fist) as a large flat surface not amenable to a cutting strike, unlike shuto or wanto.
    Looking at my tokuhon, the diagram of hira ken shows two shaded areas - hira ken and nai sho. Given the ordering of the labels and orientation of the diagram, I read this to be that hira ken was the left-most shaded area and nai sho the right. This means hira ken is the middle knuckles, so we are making a normal sei ken and then aligning the first bones of the fingers with the hand and shifting the thumb. This would match what Shotokan appears to call hira ken zuki: a punching strike with the wrist straight, the major knuckles open and the minor knuckles closed - more like ippon ken but using the knuckles of all the fingers. This would suggest that hira ken giri is a cutting strike using these knuckles, which makes more sense to me than using the inside of the fist.
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

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