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Thread: Deaths in Judo in Japan: how many are strangles & how dangerous are strangles anyway?

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    Default Deaths in Judo in Japan: how many are strangles & how dangerous are strangles anyway?

    During a discussion regarding strangles in police work, the subject of deaths in judo due to strangles, in Japan came up. Rather than drifting the thread, I am starting one here. Here's a few links I found. As best as I can tell, it looks like most deaths are due to head injuries from improper falls.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/sp...judo.html?_r=0
    http://judojiko.net/eng/

    There are typical conditions causing accidents in judo, many of which apply in this incident. The victim:
    1. was a beginner with one and a half months of judo experience
    2. had a headache before the accident
    3. was injured as a result of osotogari
    4. was paired with a taller and heavier senior student
    5. developed acute subdural hematoma

    A - warning issued by the All Japan Judo Federation (AJJF) on the first page of Safe Instruction of Judo (Ver 3 2011) states that “The amount of accidents of young beginners who injure their head or neck is substantial.”

    Note on this page - http://judojiko.net/eng/news/280.html -that of 24 accidents, ALL were from throws.

    ON this page, there is a discussion of deaths due to heat stroke - http://judojiko.net/eng/news/303.html

    So, I googled "deaths in judo from strangles"
    1. Wikipedia has a good piece on chokeholds and mentions its use in law enforcement, contrasting vascular from airway choke - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold - which highlights proper training in my view. One incident resulting in death from a taser occurred because the individual was on a ledge, was tazed and fell to his death. To state the obvious, Tasers don't need to be banned due to this.

    From Sudden Death in Custody - https://books.google.com/books?id=BF...angles&f=false

    This is an interesting summary, pointing out two potential causes of death: bradycardia and arrhythmia based on carotid sinus stimulation, and the other is positional asphyxia. http://www.aikiweb.com/techniques/gunther1.html I will note that there has been a lot of research on the latter, (there is an appendix by Dr. Gary Vilke on this subject in my books for law enforcement, EMS and corrections which discusses this issue - http://edgeworkbooks.com/books-on-de-escalation/).

    Ellis Amdur

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    Finally, I found this reference - FINALLY, I did find this paper - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3572335 Allegedly, no deaths by strangulation since 1882. (Which doesn't explain the schoolboy death I recall, unless it occurred after 1987 (it was a long time ago - don't remember the date). A comment I read on judo information forum stated that the 14 LEO deaths allegedly from strangles cited in this article did not winnow out neck cranks and bar chokes with a baton (the latter being the cause of the carotid strangle being banned in LA. (don't know if it currently is).

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    The author of that piece, EK Koiwai, was a physician who had done judo in his youth. (In Seattle, actually.) At the time of the writing, he was a US judo politician. I have no idea of the depth of his research. But, that said, I have not seen any evidence of deaths in US judo due to injuries, from any cause, during the Issei or Nisei eras.

    These days, inappropriate weight loss methods, previously undiagnosed cardiac conditions, and subdural hematoma seem to be bigger concerns than are choke holds per se.

    A problem for police, though, is that they will rarely have any idea about the current state of health of the person they are trying to restrain. An old fat guy could be a former professional wrestler, while a buff young fellow could have a heart attack.

    It goes the other way, too. A few years ago, I recall a local PD trying to explain how the athletic young officer bravely fought off a 300-pound man, without bothering to mention that the 300-pounder stood about 5'6", and had recently had his second or third spinal fusion. Had the officer simply said, "Keep walking, Fat Boy," he would have fallen on his face, totally exhausted, before clearing the parking lot. But the officer was in a hurry, so she literally tackled him out in front of the grocery store where he'd just shoplifted a steak, and then she failed to control him. Embarrassing stuff. Anyway, Fat Boy got a couple months in county for resisting arrest, while the police chief went on record as saying that more training was required...

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    I'd say let's keep the Fat Boy conversation in the police forum: if you don't think a 300 lb, 5'6" guy resistive guy could be a problem to physically control - regardless of spinal fusions - you do not have a perspective on what it takes to actually do so. Just sayin'

    As for the Judo conversation: remember too that Judo also uses hadaka jime taught in this manner:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is not at all common in BJJ or sub grappling (which is really "no gi" BJJ). It's also a far more dangerous choke and is, in my opinion, attacking the trachea and is not a vascular strangle. In other words, it is literally a "choke" and not a strangle.

    If ANY deaths in Judo were associated with shime waza I'd want to clarify that point.

    Obviously deducing the relative physical conditioning of a resisting subject is not going to always be reasonable. But that is another subject for the Combatives forum. The short answer you dont train your cops enough to ask that of them.
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    Hmmm - trying to remove second image, with the judoka in blue. I switched images after the original post for the more cartoon-y one which shows the choke better - Help from a Mod?

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    I concur in that every BJJ school I've attended, as well as my academy instructors, stressed strangles (vascular restraints) over chokes (airway/trachea - which were also banned by our department) for the simple reason that a person will become unconscious quicker and the application of the submission is easier to control (i.e. less dangerous).

    Anecdotally, there was man choked to death by his teenage cousin back in 2012 from a rear naked choke that was held too long. (http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/...ile_wrest.html)

    This certainly isn't a death-by-choke in any kind of training setting and certainly not judo. Sadly, it sounds like a case of horseplay that resulted in an actual technique applied with poor judgement compounded with an unwillingness to tap.

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    I used to get flack because I objected to using hadaka jime to choke off the airway/trachea. There are several ways to do Hadaka jime to restrain the vascular arteries instead of possibly damaging the trachea. Just saying.

    Once a student of mine was in shiai when his opponent applied a reverse standing hadaka jime on him and actually lifting him off the tatami! My student suffered for several years after that from throat problems; and my objections were ignored by officials at the time. Needless to say my club never again too part in shiai with those clubs again. Anyone who would teach such a dangerous technique does not deserve to teach Judo.

    Maybe that is why after more than 30 years of participating in and teaching Judo I took up other interests.

    BTW, while anything is possible I was taught that it takes several minutes, 15-20 min, to kill someone by a standard vascular restraint choke. Stopping someone's breathing would not take so long, but I say this; to old a choke on someone more that a few minutes is nearly impossible. It hurts a lot.
    Last edited by DustyMars; 26th January 2016 at 17:48.

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    I've been choked out a lot. Mostly in BJJ. It has never been an issue. The ones that get me are the slow ones where I'm not sure they they are on or not. Then I drift off. Never had ANY ill effects.

    Most the Judo knock outs I have seen came from a choke our Judo dojo specialized in. A Yudansha student from Yokohama named Masa taught us a collar choke we called the Masa Masacre. It was basically a sacrifice version of Okuri Eri Jime when uke is turtled. You step both legs one each side of his neck and frog kick and sutemi to side of the front hand. The collar circle closes so hard and fast it is like a big brachial stun.

    Never seen any ill effects from that one either but it was pretty brutal sometimes.
    Ed Boyd

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    Never had someone choke me out that I liked. Once back in the early 1965 at a 2nd Air Force tournament I had won a few matches and felt good about it all when I went up against a white belt who knew next to nothing but had really studied chokes (later found out). I was thinking it would be a good time to practice hane goshi, my long lost favorite, and made the mistake of stopping mid-way when I failed to achieve a good kuzushi. WHile stepping aside he choked me, both sides of my neck, before I realized what was happening and was out before hitting the mat. Man was I pissed at myself.

    Well, this white belt made it to near the end of the tournament when I drew him again. One thing I learned about myself then was something said many years ago, "The definition of insanity is repeating the same mistakes over and over again and expecting different results," so hane goshi would be an insane trick. When he hit the mat he just looked up at me with a smile. My then most recent favorite was de ashi barai.

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    I should start another thread, but even though this is old here it will be for my discussion of the so-called “deadly choke hold” by Daniel Penny. After watching the entire unedited ~5 minute video I can see that Penny did not apply Hadaka jime in the traditional sense by either the airway/trachea or vascular arteries/carotid method. The technique he applied was an old and tried method of restraint without attempting to strangle or cause blackout, but a police method to just restrain someone. I was taught several methods of Hadaka jime by many sensei, including Kotani sensei of the Kodokan many years ago in the early 1960’s.

    I taught this technique for many years and never once injured anyone. I fact, I have tried to hold someone in a failed Hadaka jime for 3 or 4 minutes and simply gave up because of muscle spasms or cramps due to prolonged use. If someone could apply this technique for more than 4 or 5 minutes it would be a miracle. Also, IMHO a choke for that short period of time would not kill a person, but having never being able to hold longer I could not say one way or the other. Just saying…..

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    Guess this is not a subject worthy of discussion. Some so-called Nidan in BJJ (amateur WWE Wrestling) on another forum attempted to correct my description of Hadaka jime. Hum, guess I'm not versed in Kodokan Judo, but did stay in Holiday Inn Express.

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    Jeff, you know for a fact that BJJ invented all of the chokes, strangles, locks, and essentially every scrap of newaza. They are sure of it! Japanese jujutsu and judo never existed.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Cady, I think you got it. I have been away for many years but still in contact with a few Judo friends that are still alive, and they laugh when I ask about BJJ. They seem to not know or remember 1951 when Kimura defeated and broke Heilo's arm. Then repeated it later on. They often forget it was Mitsuyo Maeda who taught Judo to Gracie and his gang. Oh well, they concentrated on newaza and forgot standing up Judo. the moderator locked my post because he thought it was political! I guess I'm too old to remember America as the woke bunch defines it.

    Here is another weird version of Judo, maybe he thought hane goshi was uchimata: https://youtu.be/IB0ror_uGXc

    Judo must be a lost art in certain places.
    Last edited by DustyMars; 29th July 2023 at 16:11.

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    Jeff, I think BJJ guys would flip if they saw the old Kosen judo films that obviously were made far before BJJ's time.
    Cady Goldfield

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    OK...against my better judgment I'll chime in here. I feel like I've been transported back to 1999.

    I have a shodan in Judo from Obukan, one of the oldest dojo in the United States, and a black belt in BJJ from Tim Cartmell for bona fides.

    BJJ guys won't "flip" at seeing Kosen Judo films.....they are widely known and discussed in both the "traditional" BJJ community and the wider now "modern game" jiujitsu world. It's not the same, but clearly come from the same root art - Judo. BJJ has far surpassed Judo in the newaza realm, and vice versa for Judo tachiwaza...but even then basic concept of the ground is different in both expressions, and now there has also been considerable cross fertilization/convergence between BJJ and Judo.

    Seems like your discussion is about twenty years behind the times. No one actually any good in BJJ says this stuff any more - beware the Internet Experts. The work of Robert Drysdale and Roberto Pedreira has been very revealing, and is academically sourced with primary sources in both Japanese and Portuguese. Sure, the community at large often gets the details wrong, but no more wrong than you both just did from the opposite perspective. No more wrong than many of the old koryu misunderstandings pertaining to Judo did.


    Now for the strangle...

    Another discussion full of half-knowledge and misunderstanding. I'm also twenty six year cop, full time in training now, a control tactics instructor, former VNR (vascular neck restraint") instructor, and I work in a state that just basically outlawed its use in ALL circumstances, even deadly force. (Though virtually everyone has made it deadly force now).

    Hadaka-jime; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f0n8jez7iA

    Done like this it attacks the trachea and has NEVER been allowable in law enforcement. In LE it would be a version of a "bar choke." BJJ shorthand calls it a "short choke,' if you'll pardon the pun. In the Eric Garner vid there is a spot where it appears the strangle had drifted into a bar choke.

    The "rear naked choke" is done like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMn8ZsDfMEI

    Or in a less efficient combination of the two methods like this at 1:21, which was the standard Lindell method adapted from Judo:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwAg8AmI-Zc


    Poorly trained officers (and that is sadly an oxymoron in most cases) CAN inadvertently turn a VNR into a short choke and potentially cause injury, though it does not seem that has been the actual problem with the deaths we have seen "immediately after being strangled."

    Overall, the VNR has seemed in my experience to be the most effective and efficient way to handle a resistive subject for people that have minimal training in controlling other people. In other words, if you aren't very good at controlling people, VNR is a reliable go-to, and in the vast majority of circumstances will not injure the person so restrained, even by officers without much training (VNR cert is like an 8 hour class, with a two hour recert yearly after that. For some, that is the only empty hand control training given.

    I rarely used it in twenty five years in the field. But I know how to control people. I have colleagues who do not have the level of training I do that used it all the time and it was very effective.

    But here's the rub: it is never practiced on "vulnerable populations." I think we have enough data to show that it ISN'T for the most part killing people, but we do have to factor in two things: 1) the level of skill of most officers applying it is fairly low. Like not even at BJJ or Judo six month white belt, and 2) it is being used on people with long term, chronic health conditions, enlarged hearts, heart disease, lung diseases, deterioration from long term abuse of illegal drugs and/or alcohol, drug and/or alcohol intoxication at the time of application, and so on and so on and so on...

    That's not who we are training with in jujutsu, in Judo, or in jiujitsu (though long term alcohol abusers certainly are probably not unusual even in traditional dojo, and in BJJ people who smoke weed are common.)

    And we also have to remember that optics are important. Any political advantage that can be gained, anything that can be piled on to increase the settlement dollars, or embarrass a police department (this case in New York is not about that specific case, make no mistake about it. it's just one more means to a political advantage), or disrupt the system. But nothing exists in a vacuum, and martial arts, and martial artists are not inculcated in any of that in conventional martial arts or sports training - quite the opposite is the case. We have to knowledgably discuss how all these things come together in a specific event, or with a particular approach to something and assess from as many angles as possible.

    And that is the main problem.

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