Likes Likes:  9
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Is being a rounded artist possible?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    43
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default Is being a rounded artist possible?

    Hi all,

    I was wondering how people become a rounded artist. I'm not saying perfection of course as everyone has a weak spot somewhere but I would like to structure my training to allow for long term ability.

    For example, if you go to any japanese ju jutsu class, they'll teach you to defend against all sorts of weapons, attacks etc and practice with a variety of weapons. Unfortunately i've not really managed to find a class that strips this down to its core. Many seem to be aiming for what looks good rather than what's actually effective i.e. multiple follow up attacks and throws seemingly for nothing more than the sake of it. My karate training does seem much more applicable to real life whereby most attacks are met with block return without needing to grip your assailants hand in a certain way or hoping they leave their fist in front of you for 5 seconds whilst you sort yourself out...

    This being said, I do still appreciate the thought process, I like understanding the joint manipulation and being able to do the throws (which is why I also study Judo)

    Locally we have a variety of israeli special forces things...krav Maga, Kalah and eveything in between but there nothing more about it than teaching people to bite their way free and anything goes - I saw an instructors demo video teaching students to disarm their opponent of their knife and stab them?!?!? how is that self defence??

    That's not my goal.

    I neither wish to be seen as the toughest guy around, the best, a competition fighter or anything of the sort. What I seek is that internal confidence that comes when you really know your techiniques.

    Is there one art that actually does cover it all? or am I doing the right thing in cross training?

    I mean where did the original arts go? or is my interpretation of those arts driven by the movies and what I think was there never actually existed?!

    I'd be keen to discuss how others work this out.

    At the moment i'm retraining from sales into Fitness, I work for myself and earn a living however it's the arts that drive me, I just want to train and continue learning and the only real times I feel like i'm doing that is at camps. Full intensive days coming away broken mentally and physically. I want more of that!

    is it out there or do I need to do it for myself? train harder on my own regularly?

    Bah rambling now!! help!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Blue Ridge, Texas
    Posts
    1,983
    Likes (received)
    117

    Default

    Hey Sam,
    I think you will first need to figure out just exactly what your goal is. From your post, it seems pretty nebulous to me, which will pretty much guarantee that you'll always be dissatisfied.

    Concrete goals to aim toward will bring you a lot more focus. You state that you seek "that internal confidence that comes when you really know your techniques", which is extremely vague. Spend some time thinking about it before replying, and perhaps it will help you zero in on what you're after.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  3. Likes cxt liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    43
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    Hey Sam,
    I think you will first need to figure out just exactly what your goal is. From your post, it seems pretty nebulous to me, which will pretty much guarantee that you'll always be dissatisfied.

    Concrete goals to aim toward will bring you a lot more focus. You state that you seek "that internal confidence that comes when you really know your techniques", which is extremely vague. Spend some time thinking about it before replying, and perhaps it will help you zero in on what you're after.
    thank you for your reply. apologies for being vague.

    my aim really is not to feel lost in a situation. for example, within my karate training strikes are emphasised, within judo, throws are emphasised this has given me confidence to handle a situation at range and at close quarters. But what about a knife? i'd be a little lost there, or perhaps being taken to the ground, i'd be trying to get back up rather than being able to hold my own. so the goal really is to become rounded for situation that may well arise.

    karate is massive and of course i've only touched the surface with it, there is so much more to learn that may well cover the gaps that I feel I have. i'm not concerned with pure syllabus with no other goal than a different belt my goal is to develop.

    I don't see many arts as "different" more part of the whole. I guess what i'm seeking is MMA however I have no interest in MMA! if it takes the rest of my life learning the skills more so the better

    my fear is spending years learning something to only have missed out, i don't wish to limit myself to "shotokan" i'd really like to learn "karate" but how do you do this without seriously insulting numerous sensei's and dabbling? again, i see shotokan as a piece of the puzzle rather than the whole thing. i'd truely love to dig deeper.

    sorry very hard to explain but i guess that only emphasises your point in thinking about firm goals rather than vague

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,225
    Likes (received)
    116

    Default

    I would suggest that rather than doing the surface techniques of multiple arts, you stick with the two you're doing and delve into the depths of them. For example, Judo has a large repertoire of newaza (ground work), not just standing throws. And Karate-do has self-defense applications that include defense against knives. But these may not be offered to beginning and intermediate students; you may need to wait until your sensei think you are ready. (And different belts should never be the goal; they're just an indicator that you have reached certain steps and are ready for the next.)
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  6. Likes cxt liked this post
  7. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    43
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    I would suggest that rather than doing the surface techniques of multiple arts, you stick with the two you're doing and delve into the depths of them. For example, Judo has a large repertoire of newaza (ground work), not just standing throws. And Karate-do has self-defense applications that include defense against knives. But these may not be offered to beginning and intermediate students; you may need to wait until your sensei think you are ready. (And different belts should never be the goal; they're just an indicator that you have reached certain steps and are ready for the next.)
    well made point.

    I think what's needed is more training. go for the Cliche "be the change you want to see" i.e. I want more ne waza....train more ne waza!

    my main issue with Judo is the need for an Uke - something I rarely have. Judo seems to have either very experienced people of my age and size who I am easily out classed by or very young children who I overwhelm purely on strength rather than with good Judo. I have unsuccefully tried to find a training partner to develop with but no luck unfortunately. I've contemplated buying a dummy to practice my throws on and work through some drills in transitional ground work but found mixed reviews for this idea.

    I will heed your advice though. Stay the course. Much more to learn just need to stick to it and learn.

    I think I'll discuss my desires with my sensei's they may well appreciate the eagerness as i'm sure teaching purely syllabus is trying for them too.

  8. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Saskatoon, SK, Canada
    Posts
    1,526
    Likes (received)
    58

    Default

    You can't effectively train any martial art solo. If you are looking to be effective in a fight training solo, just hit the weight room and get stronger.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  9. Likes cxt liked this post
  10. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    2
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Sogobujutsu!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hudson1984 View Post
    Hi all,

    I was wondering how people become a rounded artist. I'm not saying perfection of course as everyone has a weak spot somewhere but I would like to structure my training to allow for long term ability.

    For example, if you go to any japanese ju jutsu class, they'll teach you to defend against all sorts of weapons, attacks etc and practice with a variety of weapons. Unfortunately i've not really managed to find a class that strips this down to its core. Many seem to be aiming for what looks good rather than what's actually effective i.e. multiple follow up attacks and throws seemingly for nothing more than the sake of it. My karate training does seem much more applicable to real life whereby most attacks are met with block return without needing to grip your assailants hand in a certain way or hoping they leave their fist in front of you for 5 seconds whilst you sort yourself out...

    This being said, I do still appreciate the thought process, I like understanding the joint manipulation and being able to do the throws (which is why I also study Judo)

    Locally we have a variety of israeli special forces things...krav Maga, Kalah and eveything in between but there nothing more about it than teaching people to bite their way free and anything goes - I saw an instructors demo video teaching students to disarm their opponent of their knife and stab them?!?!? how is that self defence??

    That's not my goal.

    I neither wish to be seen as the toughest guy around, the best, a competition fighter or anything of the sort. What I seek is that internal confidence that comes when you really know your techiniques.

    Is there one art that actually does cover it all? or am I doing the right thing in cross training?

    I mean where did the original arts go? or is my interpretation of those arts driven by the movies and what I think was there never actually existed?!

    I'd be keen to discuss how others work this out.

    At the moment i'm retraining from sales into Fitness, I work for myself and earn a living however it's the arts that drive me, I just want to train and continue learning and the only real times I feel like i'm doing that is at camps. Full intensive days coming away broken mentally and physically. I want more of that!

    is it out there or do I need to do it for myself? train harder on my own regularly?

    Bah rambling now!! help!!

  11. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    520
    Likes (received)
    72

    Default

    Hi Sam,

    So here are a few thoughts I have on the matter. You’re never going to master every art or every facet of budo. There is always something you will need work on. I think Mr. Toby Threadgill once wrote we train for assumptions. I think that is a brilliant quote with a lot of depth. Some old jujutsu systems trained for full armored combat while others did not. Both have potential but the core of the art might be in one area of focus or another. My Daito-ryu can be adapted for combat in armor (and there are even remnants of armored jujutsu left) however compared to Yagyu Shingan-ryu or Kito-ryu I’m out of my league in that area. BJJ, unmodified, is great for the ring. It is much harder in a duty belt and Kevlar. In life we only have so many hours in the week to train. Between a career, family, dojo availability, etc. we have to make due.

    From my experience the most skilled and competent warriors aren’t ones that train in this art or that, but the guys who train regularly in something, anything really. TKD has a well-earned poor reputation as karate light with strip mall, kiddie after school care studios. That said I know a guy in my dept. who is a TKD guy and I more than trust him to have my back. He trains hard in what he does and is a well-rounded warrior even if his art is a bit limited. On the other hand I know some dabblers, guys who train a little of this and a little of that once in a while. Not a guy I want to have my back. Collects techniques like baseball cards but hardly well rounded as a warrior at all.

    As I gain more experience in the “real world” outside of the dojo I have come to realize that the physical training isn’t as important as the mental toughness you need in order to make it. That mental toughness is usually found in the person who sticks it out for a long time in one or maybe two arts for decades and really masters what is being offered. Even if the art isn’t the most versatile they as a person more than make up for it.
    Right now I mix aikijujutsu, kenjutsu and sumo and I feel better-rounded than I ever have in the past. Part of it though is because I have been studying and investing heavily in them for a while now. Stick with what you’re doing, don’t try to catch the next wave of trendy arts and you’ll do well for yourself. Joining a police department or the military can also help

    Cheers,
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  12. Likes pgsmith, cxt liked this post
  13. #9
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    JAPAN
    Posts
    1,610
    Likes (received)
    103

    Default

    Rounded? Of course yes. Will you excel in one particular art? No. To excel is to try and remove the habits of one art from another. Does anyone want to be a jack of all trades and master of none?
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  14. Likes pgsmith, cxt liked this post
  15. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    109
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Pardon me, but; I have to post this:

    “A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.”

    The actual phrase means the exact opposite of what most have heard, yet - the wisdom is offered both ways. Maybe keep training in your two arts (sounds like karate and judo) and look at picking up a new "non-martial" art that will support your study? Cooking is usually the easiest and most accessible way to engage this process...already a chef? Pickup a musical instrument! Already a virtuoso? Learn a new language! Already a polyglot? Shit, dude, I'm outta suggestions.

    With every step, a new dojo.
    Gil Zepeda

  16. #11
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    JAPAN
    Posts
    1,610
    Likes (received)
    103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Yuma View Post
    Pardon me, but; I have to post this:

    “A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.”

    The actual phrase means the exact opposite of what most have heard, yet - the wisdom is offered both ways. Maybe keep training in your two arts (sounds like karate and judo) and look at picking up a new "non-martial" art that will support your study? Cooking is usually the easiest and most accessible way to engage this process...already a chef? Pickup a musical instrument! Already a virtuoso? Learn a new language! Already a polyglot? Shit, dude, I'm outta suggestions.

    With every step, a new dojo.
    Well we are discussing Budo not cooking. The basic principle towards better understand is to separate each art, not mix them up. But then again if you want to start your own art? Having done four arts to a yudansha and licensed level means I started over four times. How did I get there? I didn't cross train and did my best in all as an individual entity. Ask and experienced budoka in Japan and he will tell you the same.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  17. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    109
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Sorry, Sensei,
    It was my impression he was asking whether it was possible to be a well-rounded martial artist while studying two or more martial arts at once. I only tried to suggest that rather than add another martial art(it sounds like he is doing karate and judo?), he pickup a separate, non-martial activity to compliment his budo (i.e., learning Japanese can improve understanding of and retention of terms used in the Japanese martial arts) . I think we were actually trying to say the same thing; I just made the mistake of referencing options that did not directly reflect budo, how about... "I believe picking up a new, perhaps non-budo related subject will actually help in your learning and understanding of the current martial art, or arts, you might be studying. Otherwise, continue to train hard while communicating an express curiosity to your sensei regarding advancement in technique and style that you see yourself deficient in". Phew, a lot of words to say the same thing everyone else is.
    Last edited by Johnny Yuma; 1st October 2016 at 05:42. Reason: syntax
    Gil Zepeda

  18. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    43
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kendoguy9 View Post
    Hi Sam,

    So here are a few thoughts I have on the matter. You’re never going to master every art or every facet of budo. There is always something you will need work on. I think Mr. Toby Threadgill once wrote we train for assumptions. I think that is a brilliant quote with a lot of depth. Some old jujutsu systems trained for full armored combat while others did not. Both have potential but the core of the art might be in one area of focus or another. My Daito-ryu can be adapted for combat in armor (and there are even remnants of armored jujutsu left) however compared to Yagyu Shingan-ryu or Kito-ryu I’m out of my league in that area. BJJ, unmodified, is great for the ring. It is much harder in a duty belt and Kevlar. In life we only have so many hours in the week to train. Between a career, family, dojo availability, etc. we have to make due.

    From my experience the most skilled and competent warriors aren’t ones that train in this art or that, but the guys who train regularly in something, anything really. TKD has a well-earned poor reputation as karate light with strip mall, kiddie after school care studios. That said I know a guy in my dept. who is a TKD guy and I more than trust him to have my back. He trains hard in what he does and is a well-rounded warrior even if his art is a bit limited. On the other hand I know some dabblers, guys who train a little of this and a little of that once in a while. Not a guy I want to have my back. Collects techniques like baseball cards but hardly well rounded as a warrior at all.

    As I gain more experience in the “real world” outside of the dojo I have come to realize that the physical training isn’t as important as the mental toughness you need in order to make it. That mental toughness is usually found in the person who sticks it out for a long time in one or maybe two arts for decades and really masters what is being offered. Even if the art isn’t the most versatile they as a person more than make up for it.
    Right now I mix aikijujutsu, kenjutsu and sumo and I feel better-rounded than I ever have in the past. Part of it though is because I have been studying and investing heavily in them for a while now. Stick with what you’re doing, don’t try to catch the next wave of trendy arts and you’ll do well for yourself. Joining a police department or the military can also help

    Cheers,
    Quote Originally Posted by hyaku View Post
    Rounded? Of course yes. Will you excel in one particular art? No. To excel is to try and remove the habits of one art from another. Does anyone want to be a jack of all trades and master of none?
    Hey all. Sorry for ignoring replies I've been working heavily and haven't really been on the forum.

    Anyway than you for the advice. I appreciate the thoughts and have been doing the above really, I had a rib injury at a recent judo comp and it really threw me off my training. Had to take weeks out.

    It did however make me think what I'm actually aiming for and how to achieve it. The answer is I can't! So I've had to reassess what I actually want. That luckily is still judo and karate. I've left the dabbling styles I was doing on the side as fillers and reworked my training schedule to really push the two arts I enjoy. Ive also started training on lunch breaks.

    I've realised that no one is going to teach me "martial arts" plenty will however teach me techniques. I think the art has to come from myself.

    So. Going into 2017 with a slightly new direction and new aims to training.

    Karate:
    Stick at it. I am eligible for shodan grading in December and my goal is to achieve box splits beforehand (of course not necessary but I need acheivable goals in the mix) and continue to develop the level of my basics ensuring correct form throughout my kihon training.
    Prior to shodan grading, I expect to know all previous kata in both directions. Again personal goal but feel it important for development.
    I've got 4/5 seminars planned for the year too to help with this. I tried with Julian mead at a seminar in august and was really impressed with his ability (and effortless way of making you utterly terrified) so I'm aiming to get to his courses as much as possible.
    All fairly manageable targets. Once complete I then have 2 years to build on this for my nidan. I know I'm focusing on grades but I think as much as they are just a belt they go give timescales to targets.

    Judo
    Well my first tournament was an eye opener. I'm pretty rubbish at judo it seems!! So I've changed clubs. Not because the chap I'd been training with isn't at fantastic instructor but because of the class dynamic in the new class. Many more adults which I just prefer. I've decided not to grade at all next year focusing purely on the three local tournaments and developing my randori skills.
    In my first tournament I went with a target of scoring 1 point which I did (lost by ippon in each match to same technique but got my 1 point) next tournament will be aiming for a wazari, following 2 wazari and would like to end the year with a win under my belt. The I'll consider gaining higher grades.

    So each art has its focus. Judo indeed does have it's newaza and I need to work on that. But I still struggle with having an uke. Yes at training that's easy but outside of the normal sessions it's hard to find.

    This year I've trained with some fantastic karateka and I'd love to get to their level. Most are in their 60s and put people a quarter of their age to shame. I think I'm maybe too hard on myself at times but in 30 years I'd like some guy to watch my karate and think wow and not just "geez what's that burk doing" I want to be a good black belt not a rubbish one.

    So in review, I've taken your advice and realise I won't be completely rounded but will however build on what I can do.
    Strikes - I'm keen to begun makiwara training. I think I need to start hitting something in addition to line work.
    Striking in general will improve the more I'm doing it
    Grappling, great learning curve at judo.
    Groundwork, perhaps bjj is the better art for this but I don't actually enjoy groundwork so what I get from judo is enough for me

    So COMPLETELY rounded? Perhaps not but rounded enough to be happy? Definitely.

  19. Likes cxt liked this post
  20. #14
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    JAPAN
    Posts
    1,610
    Likes (received)
    103

    Default

    As each art becomes more demanding and precise the problems arise. You could probably start of with more than a few and it wont make much difference.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  21. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    98
    Likes (received)
    21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hudson1984 View Post
    Hi all,

    I was wondering how people become a rounded artist. I'm not saying perfection of course as everyone has a weak spot somewhere but I would like to structure my training to allow for long term ability.

    For example, if you go to any japanese ju jutsu class, they'll teach you to defend against all sorts of weapons, attacks etc and practice with a variety of weapons. Unfortunately i've not really managed to find a class that strips this down to its core.
    I would warmly recommend Aunkai Bujutsu because it is exactly what you are looking for.

    Here are some information about the Aunkai method:

    "for me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body.
    Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously
    because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously."

    Q : "What do you teach at Aunkai?"
    A : "It is a tough question. (laughter) Aunkai is a method of bujutsu
    tanren. The exercises that I teach allow for the development of an
    awareness of the body, of building its frame, developing its core, its
    essence. Their purpose is to understand the subtle interaction of
    various components of the body and use them in the most efficient
    manner."

    "forms and styles are traps. The followers who only swear by this or
    that school are trapped. The ways of being attacked are innumerable,
    we need to transform our body so that it integrates the principles
    that will allow it to adapt instantaneously to any situation by moving
    in the most efficient manner possible."

    "the movements can look like Aiki or Da Cheng Chuan or have no forms,
    it does not matter as long as the body moves naturally. Moreover, the
    usage of a technique usually requires an intention. One must not hit
    after having taken the decision to do so. If it is free, the body will
    act spontaneously and will hit without awareness. Lots of teachers
    teach forms, but would be embarassed if they were to come under a real
    attack. A technique is useless if not sustained by a body that can
    create the desired effect. Otherwise it becomes a mime, not martial
    arts. (laughter)"

    Q : "do you train those exercises every day?"
    A : "Yes, I practice them regularly. But the awareness of every
    movement in everday life, walking, breathing, is a form of training
    itself. [...] I simply try to keep the principles of bujutsu in my
    everyday life"

    (after demonstrating standing up from a squatting position while
    having a 100Kg guy pushing on his shoulders )
    "When you receive force, you must keep your axis and then send it back
    as a vibration. I can do that easily with two 100kg persons. In the
    right moment, it is possible to throw back somebody as strong and
    heavy as Akebono, for that you must cancel, disperse and absorb the
    force of aite.""

    "in bujutsu, we must eliminate all the parasitic elements to arrive at
    a pure movement. [...] The movements are infinitesimal but we move by
    "closing" in the inside and the power generated is phenomenal. It is
    the inside of our body that we must develop. Working on purely
    physical attributes is of no interest for bujutsu. "

    "At first training requires effort, but step by step the body frame
    builds up and we learn to move spontaneously and efficiently. Whatever
    its amplitude, a movement can then release a force capable of throwing
    any kind of opponent. First we must understand how the force "enters"
    in the body, and then how to manifest it. This is not a superficial
    usage of the body like in sports, but one that is born from the
    connection of all its parts."

    --
    "training must first provide an awareness of gravity, body axes and
    the possibilities of our joints. The work on axes allows to
    re-equilibrate the body. Upper and lower, left and right, front on
    back become united and the efficacy of each part instead of being
    limited is multiplied by its interactions with the others, then the
    body can be used as a unit.
    The next step is to understand how the body receives force. This
    allows us to learn how to make it gush out.
    Finally, once the link between the various body parts is understood,
    we reinforce the core. Little by little the body becomes able to act
    more freely and more powerfully, while respecting the principles that
    allows it to act with efficacy."
    Aunkai Bujutsu is indeed very austere but also very deep.

    A couple of videos:






    As odd as it might seem, concentrating in a very few movements and on the elaboration of a correct structure which in turn leads to the creation of a martial body, you will become more complete and more spontaneous as a martial artist without bothering with the technical aspects and the hyper-specialization of the techniques which too often is more harmful to the art than beneficial.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

  22. Likes Cady Goldfield liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. Most amazing martial artist ever
    By Patrick Parker in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 28th April 2009, 17:25
  2. Are you a serious martial artist?
    By Woody in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 12th February 2007, 21:56
  3. Best Cinema Martial Artist ever?
    By Ade in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 69
    Last Post: 30th October 2003, 16:37
  4. A Real Martial Artist
    By PingAnTu in forum Karate Archive
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 6th September 2002, 22:49

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •