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Thread: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg videos

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    Default Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg videos

    Some videos of this weekend's joint workshop in Massachusetts:

    http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...7VKnhIMpM8bObg

    Enjoy,

    Chris

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    There's a very nice video wrap-up to the workshop that's available here.

    They both discuss Kiyama Sensei a bit, there's more about him available here.

    Best,

    Chris

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    That's pretty cool - and some good insight- thanks, Chris!

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    What I find very interesting is the fact that Mr Harden has harshly critiziced for years the work of others very skilled teachers to finally show exactly the same work and using the same patterns: wrist grabbing, Uke not being active and in this case over reacting and so on.

    Given the amount of criticism and the far too abundant litterature that Mr Harden has spread on every board over the years. I would have expected, let´s say....... something different. After all, the gentleman in question has, according to his own asserations, never met a Japanese master able to apply something substantial on him while he himself defeated them all.

    What was the topic of the workshop? Dan Harden Sensei and Roy Goldberg Sensei demonstrate principles of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu applied to MMA and combatives.


    In the material shown in the videos, especially keeping in mind all the criticism from Mr Harden, what is relevant to MMA and combatives?


    As the saying goes: criticism is easy and art is difficult.


    PS:Please note that the content of my post is NOT based only on those videos.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    I'm certainly not Dan, nor can I speak for him, but he's not on the forums so I'll put up a few thoughts.

    1) For as long as I've known him he's also supported kata practice in the context of "martial arts" - in the context of preserving a martial tradition.

    2) For as long as I've known him he's maintained that kata practice is not the ideal method of building martial power for actual applications.

    3) The videos represent a couple of minutes out of a three day/eight hour a day workshop, so they're not comprehensive.

    4) The workshop, and what you see on the videos, was nothing like what he normally teaches. This was a workshop for specific purposes - showing some things in a Daito-ryu context.

    Those are my thoughts, here are some responses from Dan that were posted in another forum:

    I've been too busy to respond.
    1. The videos presented are not my normal seminar, nor a representation what I do. It was a Daito ryu seminar for Roy's people and my people, showing the correlation between Daito ryu "techniques" and where I took the body skills and aiki from classical kata to the modern world. I suspect I will have to repeat that till I'm dead. Even after 12,00 people reading it. In total The videos represent about 30 min or so of me out of about 24 hours of training and offer little by way of explanations.
    2. Questions of the arm bar.
    I stated clearly it wasn't an arm bar. It was what happens *before* the arm bar. Said it out loud. Didn't matter though. Nothing stops an agenda. In any case, as stated, it was left open for attendees to be able to see a (prior to the filming, long explanation of) skill for removing slack prior to setting an arm bar.
    a.my legs were open,
    b. there was no bridging,
    c.I left out the grip setting the radius/ulna.
    d. I left the arm in an open position.
    e. I left out two things we do that are somewhat different and may be unique.
    All purposefully.
    But that's okay. I'll leave it to the internet jockies to *assume* that after 44 years of grappling that one minute of (explained video) defines my career- to include rolling with men far past the detractors skill sets.
    3. Open palm
    Several of the men in that video ARE Bjj and MMA guys. It was a voluntary DEMO showing a principle and a simple enough drill (done as kata) to "fill the hand." Filling the hand is a coined phrase for stickiness. Those same skills -once trained- can make you very sticky and feel "attached" controlling and difficult to deal with. And that, at speed. It is very difficult to show as it lasts for only fractions of seconds to multiple seconds when sparring or rolling. However, the "feel" has been attested to by many grapplers and fighters -again equal to and in many cases likely beyond, anyone's level here. It was done slowly and for seminar folks each step was trained in kata, tested and amped up to different levels. No, the whole thing wasn't explained on film. And probably never will be. For those that can't follow that? Good.
    4. My own comments on other videos
    Of the majority of videos I have commented on? I have discussed lineage and skills that were simply not who and what, they claimed to be. Among which were:
    a. Faudulant lineage; both in skill and paperwork- with one particularl guy who was actually thrown out of the lineage you guys then claimed he represented, then he granted rank in it.... Past any rank he himself ever recieved. But you loved it and didn't care that he was a fraud.
    b. One who claimed lineage to a made up ryu that was presumably the most developed art in the entire history of Japan, that heretofore no one has heard of...
    c. Another who was a known fraud, a sex offender who by way of court settlement lost his school, who's skills had nothing to do with the art he claimed to come from and who's ranks were dated AFTER his supposed teacher had died. But you loved it and didn't care that -he- was a fraud.

    And? My comments typically all stated "I don't care what they are doing in the video, it's only thst they are not and it is NOT, what they claim it to be."
    Who was who and what was what? Well, I can give clear examples of that as well as the many positive comments on good martial artists but why repeat? As this post will also clearly demonstrate;
    The internet has shown a clear precedent of there being millions of words presented and folks demonstrating a marked inability or *purposeful* disinterest...in not being able to read and understand them.
    That's all I have to say.
    Dan
    Best,

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Li View Post
    I'm certainly not Dan, nor can I speak for him, but he's not on the forums so I'll put up a few thoughts.


    3) The videos represent a couple of minutes out of a three day/eight hour a day workshop, so they're not comprehensive.

    4) The workshop, and what you see on the videos, was nothing like what he normally teaches. This was a workshop for specific purposes - showing some things in a Daito-ryu context.


    Best,

    Chris
    I´m very sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with your assertion. I have been to one of Mr Harden´s seminar. It was last September in Darmstadt, Germany. The host was an Aikido teacher who I understand has been following Mr Harden for some time. The vast majority of the people attending the seminar had already met Mr Harden before and some of Mr Harden´s "guys", that it is to say his european instructors. We can hardly talk about an introductory seminar. This was more an overseas seminar in one of his branch school than an introductory class with unknown people. No MMA or BJJ people that day.

    The class was not very different from is shown on the videos. Actually, the class consisted of: an endless self promotion of Mr Harden by Mr Harden himself, some urban legends about how bad the Japanese teachers are, a couple of swear words every hour to revive the atmosphere, and a few exercices that I will not comment here. I left just before lunch out of bordom. There was no point in staying.

    Mr Harden did not deem necessary to touch hands with newbies so I could not get the "privilege" to feel his technique. Instead, the newbies were handed over to his instructors to get through the exercices. We went through those exercices and I must sadly refer that Mr Harden´s instructors were not in a position to apply something significantly to me. Not once and not even nearly.

    When you read some of the comments made by this man on other respectable people, you might expect a little bit more:

    Here is a small selection:

    About Ushiro Kenji:

    I'm so, so, sad that you guys think this is high level. But I guys it can't be helped.
    Ushiro spent the better part of a day trying his stuff on me in Seattle. NOTHING worked. 21 individual encounters. All on film. Tom knows several of the 44 People in attendance. He was also sent flying by a friend of mine. I was nicer. Tom knows him as well.
    Two friends of mine, westerners (one known around the world) stopped another of these so- called internal guys in his tracks and planted him on his face.
    Also Kimura was easily neutralized.


    So... If you think any of that if this is internal and high level, I'll wait till the end of this year when they...who have felt the highest level aiki men living throughout Japan-a veritable who's who of internal and aiki- reveal their opinions of certain people.

    What did Ushiro feel like?
    Any normal guy I have ever felt.
    I agreed with Doc Steir that on contact, people who are connected "feel" different.
    Now, that becomes interesting as it goes up in scale.
    Ushiro can move and fight well. And for most people? Nothing else matters.
    But, fighting well doesn't mean they get to call it internal, ki, or aiki just because they say so.

    You can watch Ushiro on video and see him off line him self when moving someone, or when people put force into him he gets one side weighted. He isn't neutralising their force or weight. Now, this wasn't in a high stress environment, but a uke/ nage interaction. It would only get worse from there. Again, I'm not talking his fighting skills.
    I guess Ushiro Kenji Sensei must be a fraud to get such a harsh treatment. More is coming:

    Kimura Tatsuo (Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu)

    Also Kimura was easily neutralized.

    As for Kimura. When it comes to true internals, and aiki? He's no big deal. There are perhaps a dozen or so men you are talking to, right here, who could put him on his ass. There are dozens more that they know of, who are the true ivy league................


    Internals and Daito ryu:
    Kimura and other Japanese Shihan are very wise to limit their exposure and not let people test them in public.

    When your see Kimura launching guys into the air? He couldnt do a simple aiki age on him

    Probably pointing at Kuroda Tetsuzan:


    To our two other friends, when they met another famous so- called internal guy, he much the same: Clean efficient movement, very clean. Just no connected center...up against force. But up against force? The teacher planted himself when trying to move.

    Other Delikatessen:

    In all of my life, training in and out of Japan, meeting an array of aiki Masters (shihan) and senior teachers in DR and Aikido, meeting thousands of teachers and senior students......
    I have met three fairly famous guys who had anything I would call connection, and of those? Not one could do anything to me.
    The complete thread here:

    http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...39503b4c32a3f4

    By the way, I have tried to create an account on this board since I want to adress him some points but the admnistrator did not valid my membership yet. This is why the message is posted here.


    Well, despite his justifications, Mr Harden can not help criticizing other people and other people´s work, even those who have reach a great level of mastery and that are well respected both in Japan and in the world. I think that all the individuals above mentioned deserve more respect and should not be treated this way. I do not know or care if Mr Harden is truly better than these individuals and I truly do not think so, but his assertions are way out of the line. It became even more obvious after I went to the seminar in Darmstadt. He might have some skills, something his instructors, not surprinsigly, do not absolutely have, but, quite frankly, he is a waste of time and money.

    The seminar he conducted in Germany was not different from the videos and even the pictures on your web site tend to confirm that. As for the content, as I said complete waste of time and money.

    The videos posted only confirm the impression that I got that day back in september. Not only what Mr Harden shows is not new or different but I would say that it is certainly not better or MMA or reality based oriented despite all his claims compared to what other teachers do and teach.

    Mr Harden can make all the excuses he wants but nevertheless the videos do not show anything different in terms of technique, movements, skills, body connection or strategy. All we see is several over reacting and obliging Uke doing nothing but taking falls for him, exactly the kind of content he has been criticizing for years.


    This was a workshop for specific purposes - showing some things in a Daito-ryu context.
    Sure, as it was made clear by the title of the video:

    Dan Harden Sensei and Roy Goldberg Sensei demonstrate principles of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu applied to MMA and combatives.

    I would be interested in your definition of mixed martial arts. Is it a literal interpretation/translation of the words or the modern combat sport? Same question for combatives.

    I realize that this message is somewhat out of place in this board since Mr Harden is not browsing this site anymore but I wrote for the record and because I could not agree with some of the fallacious excuses made by Mr Harden especially considering the way he treats other people. He truly is a master of ukemi and never runs out of justifications.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raff View Post
    I´m very sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with your assertion. I have been to one of Mr Harden´s seminar.
    I have been to many workshops with Dan and my experience doesn't reflect yours. As for the rest, it's probably best answered by Dan himself. Actually, I don't think that it should even be on here, since he's not here to debate it on his own - which you already seem to be aware of.

    Best,

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Li View Post
    I have been to many workshops with Dan and my experience doesn't reflect yours. As for the rest, it's probably best answered by Dan himself. Actually, I don't think that it should even be on here, since he's not here to debate it on his own - which you already seem to be aware of.

    Best,

    Chris

    You are right. I have the deepest for you and your amazing work in your blog. I have no problem with you and nothing was adressed against you personnaly.

    I´m done talking about this man on this board.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    Moderator's Hat On

    Since Chris posted some videos of Mr Harden and Mr Goldberg in this forum, Mr Harden is of some relevance to this forum. Personally, I think that what Mr Harden does or does not do is of great relevance to training in aikido and other martial arts. However, he can post via Chris or myself, via PM.

    There is a fine line to be drawn between disagreement and personal attacks and I give notice that I will edit posts accordingly.

    NOTE. I have edited this post, since Mr Harden was indeed banned as a result of the collective decision made by the forum owners. The owners will shortly discuss whether to lift the ban or keep it in place.



    Best wishes to all,
    Peter Goldsbury
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    I agree with Raff's assessment. I've been in dialogue with Dan and his students and have striven to keep the discussion productive and somehow in service of the art and the community. Those efforts were in vain because I was continually told I could never understand the depth of the work.


    Now seeing it, I'm not saying that the work isn't substantive, but Ive seen the same performed by mature artists of various disciplines. Its unfortunate that the dialogue in the MA community has been dragged down with such little benefit where this is concerned. It's not about him personally, it's about maintaining a collegial, productive atmosphere in the MA community so the community itself may grow and even progress.

    I am am not familiar with Goldberg Sensei, but he seems to be of a different approach than Mr Harden. I'd study with him.
    Last edited by Allen2Saint; 19th December 2016 at 01:41.

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    I was on the seminar of which Mr. Deutsch reports. I must say that I completely agree with Chris – that description doesn’t reflect my experience of any Dan Harden seminar I’ve been to, including the one in question.

    It is clear that Mr. Deutsch is dissatisfied with what he got out of the seminar, and I am sorry to hear that. It is also clear that he does not like Dan Harden personally. Both are, of course, perfectly fine and his right and privilege, no question about it. I do have to point out to some problems in his report, though.

    First, he has spent just the first two hours on the seminar and has had, by his own admission, no contact with Dan personally. During those two hours only the very basics were touched upon. I’d say that makes no ground on which to claim what Dan does or doesn’t do in his own (considerably longer than 2 hours) seminars, or how that compares to what is shown in the consecutive 20 minutes of video of a multi-day Daito Ryu seminar to which Mr. Deutsch didn’t go. Both are just snippets of certain parts of respective seminars.

    Second, “Dan’s guys” are not his European instructors (of which I don’t know any). “His guy’s” are those people who have been to at least a couple of seminars, who know the underlying theory and basic solo exercises and who can do other stuff while he explains the basics to new people. In other words, regular seminar attendees.

    Third, the seminar itself, of which Mr. Deutsch doesn’t say much at all. The group in September had about 1/3 new people, so while it was not a seminar exclusive to beginners, the whole first day was about the basics. After a short Q&A, Dan went through the theory of building the soft connection in the body (intent, Heaven, Earth, Man, kua and bow use), after which people were paired up for partner exercises – new people with regulars. Dan moved around doing corrections, which included showing you the exercise again, letting you feel him do it, explaining what he did, and working on it with you while you get it right. Such corrections take time, and it might take a while for him to reach any specific person (there were about 30 people on the seminar), but he is very clear (saying several times every day of the seminar) that if he skipped anyone, to let him know so he can work with them (which people did).

    Fourth, the exercises we were doing that first day are completely cooperative in nature. The point is not to apply anything to anyone but oneself. Uke is there to give feedback on manifestation of intent in nage and little else. Applying anything to uke in that context is a mistake and in my experience a detriment to creating clean connection within nage.

    Lastly, Dan’s biggest message on every seminar I’ve been to is that this training is not about him but about what each of us can do with the material. He goes out of his way to say he is not the originator of this material, that he had learned it somewhere and that people can learn it elsewhere, too. On my first seminar, when I asked, he had no problem giving me a list of other teachers I can visit and learn IP from. I have also learned the bulk of the solo exercises used in Dan’s model on that first seminar, and the rest on the second one. I really don’t need to go to any more of his seminars ever again in order to gain internal power. Not one. He gave me everything I need within the first 4 days of knowing me. That’s not behavior one would expect from a self promoter, IME.

    Whether a seminar is a waste of time and money is, of course, for anyone to decide for themselves, but IMO Mr. Deutsch’s report holds little substance in that regards and a lot about how horrible a person he thinks Dan Harden is. Again, how he feels is his own matter and I have no issue with it, but his description of the seminar is far from what actually happened there.

    Marko

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    Mr Marko,

    I won´t even try to argue with you. I know what I have seen and heard in that seminar. I also know what I read on the various forum. I do not feel the need to make any further comment since my post is clear enough, if this is not the case, too bad but that´s the way it is. You do not need to provide me with technical or any other kind of explanations either. I do recognize Mount Tai when I see it.

    If you are satisified with what you do, it is fine for me and it does not bother me at all.

    I wish you the best in your training.

    And finally some words of wisdom taken from the poetic Edda, I hope you will appreciate them:

    I rede thee, Loddfafnir! and hear thou my rede,

    Profit thou hast if thou hearest,

    Great thy gain if thou learnest :
    A shoemaker be, or a maker of shafts,

    For only thy single self ;
    If the shoe is ill made, or the shaft prove false,

    Then evil of thee men think.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    Mr. Deutsch,

    Thank you. Many a time have I drank at the fount of the Tall One's wisdom myself. I hope the appreciation is mutual:

    The unwise man thinks all to know,
    while he sits in a sheltered nook;
    but he knows not one thing, what he shall answer,
    if men shall put him to proof.
    Best,
    Marko

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marko View Post
    Mr. Deutsch,

    I hope the appreciation is mutual:



    Best,
    Marko
    Sure it is. This is one of Humanity´s masterpiece and still relevant in those days and age.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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