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Thread: Dillman and Montaigue

  1. #1
    Gogita9x Guest

    Default

    I am a JKD/ Jujutsu student but I am interested in pressure point and acupressure fighting.
    I have heard a lot about George Dillman and Earle Montaigue. I was just wondering if Dillman's seminars and training or training under Montaigue would be a good choice.
    Both men talk about pressure point and acupuncture techniques and I was wondering if they were actually valid sources?

  2. #2
    Guest

    Default Kyusho/Okinawan Ti ?s

    Gogita9x:
    1) Are these stylist reputable individuals?
    2) Are they into the M.A.s for personal glory and financial gain?
    3) Did both of them learn and master a system that encompasses the total fighting gamut, or are they just masters of supposed p.p. (pressure point) fighting?
    4) Are their principles scientifically sound for any situation/confrontation, or are they only effective on a willing participant/victim (as opposed to an adrenaline-enraged individual[s])?
    If you ask yourself these type of questions you will reach a conclusion (along with some personal research, rather than others opinions) as to which is the most qualified to teach p.p. techniques. My personal perspective is that if you can't prove that the person in question has integrity and the respect of many of his peers (not only in his "art" but in other styles as well) then it's better just to stay away. If you're looking for legitimate styles (not stylists) that incorporate Okinawan Ti in their systems, then I would recommend taking up the Ryukyuan-based systems of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu, Bugeikan and Motobu Ryu (to name a few). For a good Chinese system that includes numerous p.p. techs, many would consider Fukien (Shaolin) White Crane a good style to practice. I don't want to comment on either Montaigue or Dillman as p.p. experts, but I will say that the former may be more on the up and up. Good luck...and stay away from shortcuts! Peace...
    Bryan L.C.

  3. #3
    Gogita9x Guest

    Default More Help

    Bryan,

    could you tell me if you know which style of Japanese martial art was most directly influenced by shaolin white crane???

    Also would you know of or could you direct me to any place, person or something .. that has a good mixture of Japanese martial arts(hybrid/combined) and a good mixture of Chinese Martial arts as well(hybrid combined) if possible.

    And also the styles that were influenced by bagua/pakua and hsing-i/xingyi respectively?

    Or could you reference me to a site or book or person who would know??

    Basically I strted in american karate and tkd .. and as I got older studied jkd and some kajukenbo b/c they were hybrid arts with a little of everything... now I want to get a grasp on the basics again. But I do like hybrids b/c they are combinations of principles...

    Thank you for the suggestions though .. got to get cracking on finding some good schools.

  4. #4
    Guest

    Default Steelos...

    Kai:
    All Japanese karate has some Crane (or other Chuan Fa) influence, as all Japanese styles (w/the possible exception of Japanese Shorinji Kenpo) are derivatives of their Okinawan father styles. Those Okinawan styles (not to be confused w/Japanese--ever!) most influenced by Fujian White Crane include Jukendo: a hybrid style of 7 Chinese systems including Horizontal Crane boxing, as well as Pa kua, and Wutang Boxing. I know of no Okinawan or Japanese system that was directly effected by Xing Yi (Hsing-I), but nothing exists in a vacuum so its possible I'm just ignorant in this case. Okinawan Goju Ryu (not Japenese Goju or Trias' contrived Shuri Ryu) also contains many Crane elements. The problem w/ the Naha-Te derived systems is that they practice what many Medical and M.A. experts feel is any unhealthy form of kata/breathing called Sanchin. These Naha Te systems are also considered more "internal". the Naha Te systems of Ryuei Ryu and Uechi Ryu are also from the Crane tradition, and although less- known, they are highly regarded amongst masters on Okinawa.
    Your best bet would probably be the Shaolin influenced schools of Okinawan Shorin Ryu and Chotokyu Kyan's Shorinji Kempo. The "school-boy" or Itosu-type Shorin is comprised of Matsubayashi, Shobayashi, and Kobayashi. The former being the most sport oriented, and the last two having many aspects of the original Matsumura Suidi in them. Kobayashi (Shorinkan/Shitokan) and Shobayashi have many "Japanicised" quirks, but are considered less influenced by Japanese culture than say Shito-Ryu, Shotokan, Kyokushin, and other modern competition-based (as opposed to true martial forms-i.e. jutsu -vs.- do) styles. As a result many of the original "bunkai" or proper technique application is left intact, and this is where true p.p. techniques can be elucidated. This is especially true of Matsumura Seito (Orthodox) Shorin Ryu (Suidi). Not only were the proper bunkai and fighting techs of Shaolin (Fujian) White Crane Gongfu + Ti passed down to Hohan Soken (3rd Gen. Successor to Sokon Matsumura), but many of this styles Kobujutsu (weapons science) techniques are dynamic and awesome to behold. This style is considered to be the closest thing to the original hybrid form which was later called Kara- (China or Empty) Te (Ryukyuan hand fighting). This Shorin school teaches a much safer version of the Sancin Kata called Shorinji Sanchin, as well as the Hakutsuru or "White Crane" forms. Truly, a proven form of combat science (not sport)!.
    So to reiterate my initial point- all karate is from the GongFu tradition, but only some modern forms truly reflect this, and most of these are Okinawan (Ryukyuan) and not Japanese. Some books to check out include: Mark Bishop's "Okinawan Karate- Teachers, Styles and Secret Techniques" and Patrick McCarthy's translation of the seminal Karate bible called "The Bubishi". For Chinese joint/p.p. manipulation Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming's "Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na" is a great introductory book for standing control and grappling as well as some Kyusho principles. I've forgotten this address but search for Keller's Martial Arts Institute (Shorin Ryu Shorinkan) and click on the White Crane info. It gives a quick description of my Sensei's Matsumura Hakutsuru study class, and a list of Crane influenced Kata. Good Luck with everything, and I hope you find what you're looking for; or I hope it finds you! Peace Bruh'...

  5. #5
    Guest

    Default Keller's site...

    I found the address to Keller's site -http://web-hou.iapc.net/~kmap/ ..
    Bryan

  6. #6
    Butoryu Guest

    Smile A message for Gogita9x (Long Post)

    Gogita9x,

    Regarding your interest in Dillman/Montaigue, please see my post/reply in the "Karate" section.

    To add to the information already supplied regarding White Crane (Hakutsuru):

    Those viewing the Butoryu art for the first time are often heard to describe it as "that Chinese looking Karate style". Others say that it looks "kind of like Gongfu" (Guoshu). The truth is that is what it is. China the mother art, Okinawa the father … a marriage of Yin & Yang. The style taught at the Butokan is known formally as Butoryu Tsuruken - "Warrior/Scholar Style Crane-Fist".

    The principles of Butoryu Tsuruken or Crane-Fist Boxing, forms the core of our study. Principles are the essence upon which the art is built and represent the essence of the Butoryu Tsuruken method. Technique oriented martial arts are limited. However, Butoryu Crane-Fist technique embodies the concepts and principles at the heart of the art.

    Based primarily upon the teachings of Yabiku Takaya Sensei, Sifu Yap Leong, Feeding Crane-Fist Adviser Shifu Paul Wollos, Shifu Guping of Southern China and Ron Goninan's own personal experiences, Butoryu Tsuruken strives for the essence of Tsuruken (Crane Boxing) via the paragon that is kata.

    Great emphasis is placed upon two-man drills involving looking in-depth into kata applications that involve life-protection against not only standard techniques but also common acts of everyday violence which plagues our fast-paced society.

    Butoryu Tsuruken is more about concepts, principles and essence then it is about techniques. It's about striving to hold true to one's “Fuku maami” (Heart Within). Many of the Butoryu concepts are unique and go against the tide of popular trends within the martial arts. At no time do we within the Kokusai Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan claim to be teaching original White Crane-Fist. We strive to embody the intent, essence and spirit of the original way.

    Our teachings are not only of historical interest but also practical in face of today's increasingly violent society. While we maintain a strong historical connection to the roots of Crane-Fist Boxing of both the Chinese and Okinawan traditions, our primary focus is on effective personal life-protection. Ours is a innovative, progressive and traditional approach to the Grandfather of Okinawan Karatedo ..... Hakutsuruken or White Crane-Fist Boxing.

    The training is contained within several phases of learning known as Shokyu Geiko which embodies the levels of Nyumon, Shokyu, Chukyu and Jokyu in which the fundamental concepts, principles and techniques are blended with that of the kata. Advanced training takes place within the Joden, Okuden, Hiden and the Kaiden levels. The Kokusai Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan Karatedo Kyokai acknowledges the generosity, assistance and advice of senior martial arts historian and researcher, Mr. Patrick McCarthy Kyoshi for allowing the use of these terms within the Butoryu structure.

    It should be observed that there exists several distinctive characteristics and principles which serve to embody Hakutsuruken (White Crane-Fist) as taught within China's Middle Kingdom and the Ryukyu Island's of Okinawa.

    The hourglass-like "Battle Kamae", ghost-like step and slide like body shifting motions unrelenting in their forward motions, centred and energy-filled postures, scattered hitting (Shan Da), point striking (Dian Xue), the method of intercepting energy and grappling/seizing/capturing skills (Jieqi Qin-na), bridge-arms which project outward from the centre-line, and techniques in which the practitioner extends the arms like the unfurling of a crane's wings and one-legged stances are all signature characteristics of Crane-Fist Boxing.

    Apart from the identifiable Crane-Fist techniques, the Butoryu Tsuruken style has very few fancy looking techniques in it's life-protection mode. To the uneducated onlooker, Butoryu Tsuruken is at once a very beautiful and very ugly, a very weird looking type of martial arts. At the same time its' a marvellous style, containing within a myriad of changes and combinations in response to acts of personal violence.

    Butoryu Tsuruken basics look very simple and is best taught in the context of one-on-one training known as Tingxun (courtyard training). There are actually very few of them. However, it takes a good deal of practice to achieve a real power in them. Power used in Butoryu Tsuruken cannot be muscular. All movements are performed with complete relaxation. At the beginning students are required to perform them without any power, in sort of soft, loose movement. This way the "life power" (as opposed to "dead power" of some other Chinese, Japanese and Okinawan martial arts) can be achieved.

    There are 6 major basic techniques in Butoryu Tsuruken. Each is named after the 5 elements of traditional Chinese philosophy:

    1. Jinshou / Metal Hands - performed using strike with the top of the hands and seen in the opening of the forms.

    2. Mushou / Wood Hands - striking with the fingertips.

    3. Shueishou / Water Hands - using outer and forward movement of inner parts of forearms and hands.

    4. Huoshou / Fire Hands - palm strike, similar to Gojuryu's Mawashi-uke, but differing in it's finishing aspects.

    5. Tushou / Earth Hands - fists strike.

    6. Gimchiu - a variation of Metal Hands, performed larger. The vibration must be developed in order to perform larger or smaller techniques.

    From here, all other methods and variations are developed and the encouragement of refinement (Li-Jing) is then pursued. The aim being to seek knowledge (Qi-Zhi).

    The Crane fighting style strongly resembles a crane in combat for it's food and therefore it's survival, reflecting this attitude in real combat. The Crane will become very aggressive when is hungry. It will hunt it's victim down, trap, prepare for a final strike and kill it, in order to feed.

    The Crane-stylist pivots to face opponent sideways in order to enter or move away from the line of attack. Additional movements, such as side entry (similar to Aikido's irimi), plus moving forward and backward are also used.

    Butoryu Tsuruken theory is to absorb the opponent's power, style, and use it against him. Many movements of Butoryu Tsuruken actually resemble an almost "female-like” approach to the attack. Many movements, steps, etc, all are rather strange in their nature and outlook, therefore leading to the view that one of the major base systems of Butoryu © Tsuruken in the form of Shihequan (Feeding Crane-Fist may well be the original Boxing system developed by Fong Jiniang as mentioned in the pages of the famed “Bubishi”.

    The Butoryu Tsuruken art of pressure point striking (kyushojutsu) is approached in a very different manner from that widely seen and promoted. The idea is to strike the entire sensitive part of body / arm / leg rather than impact upon a precise point. It is our view that in a real, full-on combative situation it is virtually impossible to hit precisely into a pressure point. We in the Butoryu Tsuruken prefer to use the area of the point, rather than trying to hit the actual point itself. This method of kyushojutsu makes for a very effective approach to personal life-protection that is easily learnt and applied.

    The use of the fists is mastered in the basic levels leading on to the use of finger strikes, open palm, elbows, feet, knees. Shoulders etc. In fact, the entire body serves as a defensive weapon.

    In defence of oneself the initial block serves as a means to deliver shock to opponent as to weaken his further attacks, and just about every block is followed by strike or series of offensive movements.

    In describing Crane-Boxing, Shihequan (Feeding Crane-Fist) Master Lio Chin-Long stated: "We, in Shihequan, are Feeding Crane. Behave like that crane. Eat attacker bit by bit. Eat his eyes, ears, throat. Always move for final kill. Absorb any skills that may help you - because it's Feeding Crane - the style to which anything can be absorbed, if it serves as means of defence”.

    Stances are always in motion, constantly searching the earth for ground-reaction-energy in a manner similar to riding a bicycle … an ever-changing relationship between the Yin and the Yang:-

    · Huyepo / Huyao pu - Tiger Waist Stance, similar to karate's zenkutsu dachi, serving as an entering movement (irimi in Japanese).

    · Chitiao liongpo / Yitiao long bu - Single Dragon Stance: a sideways position, it can be triangle stance or horse stance performed sideways; serves to shift body to evade or enter the attack. Often used in connection to the Fan-Pal and Tile Palm Strike of the Nanquan (Southern-Fists) styles.

    · Tokapo / Tujiao bu - Singe Leg/Empty Stance: Identical to karate's neko-ashi-dachi; serving as a “Body-Change” or evasion movement.

    · Guniampo / Guniam bu - Girl Stance: same as a Triangle Horse Stance and the Single Dragon Stance but smaller in length. A very effective stance!

    Body movements are closely related to stances, movements include forward, backwards, sidewards and angled movements using a step and slide motion, pivoting movements, changing stance from front to side jumping movements as bouncing away from rapidly attacking opponent, and counter-attacking while landing. Butoryu Tsuruken movements are done fast, with rapid advancement or withdrawal and body-shifting.

    In the eyes of the Butoryu stylist, kicking techniques harkens back to olden times on Okinawa when kicks were kept within arms reach. This perhaps comes from times when older Chinese methods of kicking were used. Snapping low kicks are very effective in their nature, and this method is used to great advantage within the Butoryu Tsuruken style.

    In defending its territory the White Crane is calm within the face of adversity. The “Shukoken” or “Crane’s Head Strike” is modelled on a crane defending itself. The crane extends its neck pointing its beak downwards and rushing its head forwards like a feathered battering ram displaying a red crown like the ‘rising sun’ emblem of Japan. Ever graceful in flight, the swift up-beat of the crane’s wings followed by a slow feathering of the air as they press downwards with their wings to float on the breeze closely resembles the “Hiko-Tsuru-Hane” Flying Crane Wings” Strike. The various applications of the “Hakutsuru-Hane” or “White Crane Wing’s” are reminiscent of a crane extending its wings in combat to unbalance and overwhelm the opponent.

    Traditionally, there are very few actual White Crane-Fist forms, although modern schools have devised and or resurrected numerous variations via the medium of research. A unique feature of the White Crane system is the manner in which these empty-hand and weapon forms are designed. The traditional forms are comparatively short and revolve around the development of the practitioner’s energy. The emphasis is on understanding the essence, the essentials and the foundations of each form.

    The longer forms are considered to be more combative in nature and application. These forms can be done as fighting sets with a partner.

    Additionally to forms (Quan / Kata), Butoryu Tsuruken also uses "pre-forms combinations (Xin). These are just basic techniques performed in series of movements. This system ensures an organised approach to mastery of not only the individual movements, but also the fighting theory (known as “Crane-Thinking” or “Crane-Mind”) and real-world life-protection applications of the form.

    All White Crane-Fist forms embody the following “essentials”: Sinking, Swallowing, Floating, Spitting, Lifting, Rebounding, and most importantly of all Softness (“Rou-Jin”) and Listening (“Ting Jin” …. reading the opponents intentions and energy).

    The highest level of Butoryu Tsuruken comes in being able to completely avoid an opponent's assault having the option of either evading the assailant until he is too exhausted to continue or to deliver a fast, effective terminating pressure point strike.

    Butoryu Tsuruken contains all the essential qualities and essence of other Crane styles. In order to feed, crane must be able to fly, whoop, and rest. All of which is held within the Butoryu Tsuruken style. Methods of using the Crane's voice (He Sheng) are also explored (He Ming).

    The Butoryu method merges the rivers of knowledge contained within Chinese He-Quanfa (Crane-Fist Boxing) with that of Okinawan Tsuruken (Crane-Fist) and Ryukyu Kobudo to offer an all inclusive and comprehensive art with martial arts spirit and self-development being its primary objective. This is achieved via the exploration of the combative and philosophical principles contained within:-

    · Waza: Techniques and applications of same.
    · Kata: Hidden ritual application concepts related to everyday life and situations.
    · Bunkai/Futari-Renzokugeiko: Two-person training routines symbolic of combat & combat
    principles.
    · Ryukyu Kobudo: Okinawan Weapons – form and function.

    Great emphasis is placed upon establishing a symbiosis of all these concepts within the practitioner so that they are not only a part of the art as the art is a part of them.

    We have found that it is impossible to standardise people as they vary from individual to individual, as do the methods by which to instruct them in the ways of the martial arts. Personalities and the interaction they bring with them constantly changes. Therefore the essence and essentials become far more important than the way in which one appears to the casual observer. This is, something that sadly many modern current martial arts practitioners and instructors seem to have forgotten.

    We don’t have hundreds and hundreds of kata (forms). "It is better to plow deep in a small garden than to plow lightly in a large garden, for a better crop will grow in the small garden" . In brief, the kata we have are those we know internally including the myriad of applications they yield.

    NOTE: Butoryu Tsuruken is the signature system of Ron Goninan and his personal research, experiences and innovations of the principal teachings within the field of Crane-Fist Boxing.

    This is Butoryu Tsuruken.

    AUTHOR:

    Ron Goninan
    Kokusai Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan.
    Australia.
    E-mail: [email protected]

    Web Site: http://www.100megspopup.com/butoryu


    · With special thanks and acknowledgment to Mr. Paul Wollos (Feeding Crane-Fist Technical Adviser) of the Lio Family Original/Unique Martial Arts School: Paihemen Shihequan.

    Bibliography:

    "Zhen Zhong Nan Pai Shao Lin Quan - Mi Quan - Pai He Men Shi He Quan" -
    "Traditional/Original/Orthodox Southern Shaolin Fist Style - Hidden/Secret Style/Fist -
    White Crane Gates/School Feeding Crane Fist/Style.

    © Copyright: 2001. Kokusai Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan. All Rights Reserved.

  7. #7
    Guest

    Default Re:Mr. Kass...

    Sir,
    I only relay the information I have received in over 20 years of M.A. study. As for comprehension, I am an educated man (B.S.-Biology) and am versed in more than just Karate. This is the most contentious board I have ever seen. Maybe YOU should read more rather than getting one ot two interpretations of reality. As far as Shidokan/Shorinkan are concerned, I trained under Sensei Ulysses Aquino in the Philippines for 4 years in the early to mid-80's, and found Kobayashi to be the least influenced by Japan, but it still had a very formal, regimented class set-up as compared to the informal attitude of the Okinawan way of teaching. When I say Japanicised, maybe I should say those styles influenced by capitalism and the ultra-competitive attitude of most modern Japanese Budo. Itosu wanted the favor of the Japanese so he diluted Shurite, and made it safer for "school-boys" to practice. Whether you like it or not many Okinawan Senseis refer to the "newer" systems of Shorin Ryu as "school-boy" karate. That doesn't mean that a style such as Matsubayashi Ryu isn't Karate, but that it is sport-oriented Karate. It also doesn't mean that Itosu wasn't a great Master of Shurite. He most definitely was, but the style he knew and the one he conveyed to many of his students was not the same (in many instances). As for the fact that Matsumura Orthodox (that's why it's called ORTHODOX) Shurite was founded later than Nagamines, Chibana's, etc., is irrelevant because as you may know Hohan Soken left Okinawa prior to the start of WWII because he didn't want to teach the Japanese Shorin Ryu, and returned in the fifties to find that the Karate being taught on Okinawa was not the same animal he was familiar with. Can the other Masters say as much? Did they stick around and help establish Karate as a training tool for future Japanese soldiers to be used by Japan to further their own "interests"? Yes, they were and are Japanicised, and even my Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate-Do teacher in the P.I. relayed the animosity that most Okinawans felt towards their subjugators. My current Sensei Mr. Ronald Lindsey studied under Seizan Kinjo, and Fusei Kise and he also feels similarly, as this is the impression of certain styles in Okinawa. Mr. Kai was asking a question about Crane influences, and I responded with the appropriate answer. I did not misquote any of my sources (even the FACTS about Goju Sanchin). I really shouldn't even have responded to your tirade and just continued to let you wallow in your ignorance, but that reply was ridiculous. Decorum will always serve you better than contention. If you have a valid opinion about something you should be able to respond any way you want, but please some civility! I must have hit a chord and offended you in some way-I apologize for that, but I don't apologize for my matter-of-fact manner.
    As for the Kanji "kara", I was told that it could also be translated to mean China, but due to Japanese anti-Chinese sentiment itwas instead pronounced "empty"-whatever. That's irrelevant and the fact is most Karate encompasses both the empty-hand fighting techniques, and Kobudo/Kobujutsu. So if I was wrong on that point then I apologize. As for Uechi Ryu I never intended on including it in the "unsafe" Sanchin category, and even mentioned that it and Ruyei Ryu are highly regarded on Okinawa. Whasuup' with YOUR comprehension?! Since I've returned from overseas I've found ONE legitmate Karate instructor in the South/Central Texas area. It took me over 12 years! I drive 2 hrs. (there and back) to train with him at least twice a month for 4-6 hours each session. Otherwise the Karate here is a joke (for the most part), and that's the reason it's made light of by legitimate practitoners and real fighters. It's too comercialized and diluted as a result of Japanese and American "Free Market" economics. The truth always hurts!!! Later...

    Bryan Lee Seer

  8. #8
    zach Guest

    Default Wow

    Wow, that was really snotty. Even for a martial arts forum. BTW, im not sure why exactly you consider Matsubayashi -ryu Schoolboy karate, you think Nagamine is somehow "inferior" to the names you drop or what? He certainly doesnt sanction 'sport karate', in fact, in his book (forget the name) he completely denounces the Japanses tournament system, and talks in detail about it's detrimental effect on karate do, as does Funakoshi, who also, since you mentioned it, has a fairly clear explanation of the kara=chinese or not thing in Karate Do Kyohan, which yes, I realize is a simplistic book in some ways, but I think that was his intention. Also, the link you keep touting teaches something called "cardio karate", is that a traditonal Okinawan art form? Heh. Also, I find it somewhat ridiculous the way youre representing all Okinawans as believing one thing or another,I'm sure they have differing viewpoints as well. Another thing, even though i'd probably agree with you about the harmful
    effects of the free market economy, youre verging on a diatribe unrelated to this group don't you think? For future references, no. I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about this or that school or style. In fact, I think it's silly in general to even argue about this stuff as there can really be no ultimately correct answer, and each individual will interpret the facts differently. So mellow out and stop dissing other peoples way of doing things, unless you want the same back.


    -Zach Z

  9. #9
    Guest

    Default RE: Zach & Mr. Rousselot

    Zach: I'm sorry if I came across as snotty. I'll try and keep the dissin' to a minimum. I, too, took Matsubayashi Ryu for about 1 yr., and own Nagamine's books- "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do" and "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters", both are outstanding. What I should have said was that they are very tournament oriented now. I have no qualm with any of my brother styles of Shorin or with any style, for that matter. They are all exemplary systems in their own right! I'll refrain from making the mistake of criticizing in the future.

    Mr. Rousselot: Thanks for the correction. I know practically nothing of the Japanese language, but I sorta' got it right; right? What exactly do you do in Japan? Again, thank you for the clarification.


    I apologize if I offended anyone. I'm sometimes blinded by my own enthusiasm for the Shorin styles.

    Bryan Seer

  10. #10
    Gogita9x Guest

    Default Thank you

    Thank all of you,

    Bryan, Jim and Robert for the information. In some ways it does seem that most american schools, especially in my are TN, MS, ARK are over populated by a sports training style for tourneys and things like that. Actually I trained in MA under a Japanese friend of my granddads(Mr. Oyami) at the same time I was studying Shoto at a dojo in TN. Seems as if when i trained with him, I would win a lot of the sparring matches in my shoto class. He did not label his as a style he just said he would teach me some defense.

    After my grandad passed though Mr. Oyami left the country and well I havent heard from him in a couple of years.

    But am I to understand that to more than likely learn a more efficient form of MA relating a style of karate it would be best that I go overseas to study???

    Hmm , well its a though, when I get my finances straightened out enough.

  11. #11
    Guest

    Default Whateva'man!!!

    Kass: My style of Kobayashi, Shorinkan, was under the auspices of the Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate-Do, but I see you're a master of the science of assumption. We had nothing to do with Miyahira Sensei (Shidokan).

    Also, Matsubayashi Ryu is tournament oriented, sport karate at this juncture in time. Period.

    I gave you names of Okinawan senseis who have used the term "school boy". Which "school boy" style do you take? I, too, am a master of assumption and modern alchemy, Mr. Engineer!!!Heh, heh,heh..

    The reason Soken renamed his style of Suidi/Shurite, Shorin Ryu, was also because of the familiarity the Okinawans and others had with the name Shorin Ryu. Can the other masters say they didn't sell-out? Many of the "Masters" did capitulate to their Japanese conquerors and SELL-OUT. Like El Hajj Malik El-Shabazz said, "No sell-out"! Comprende', now.


    Again, Itosu watered down his instruction of Shurite fighting techniques, in order to make it more palatable for Japanese/Okinawan "school boys". That's the facts.


    Why do I need to reread my Okinawan history? The proof is in the pudding, and the fact is that Karate is associated with Japan, and Okinawa is synonymous with Japan in the publics' eye. Well we all now that they are very different, and who should get the credit for karates existence.

    So, please, please, please don't try and tell me what you THINK, especially when it comes to Hohan Soken the founder of the style I train in. Why the hell would I need to reference Bishop's book about Soken? I get my info from a source connected to Soken's style.


    Kai: I'm pretty sure you can find a good instructor in your area. Just look around, visit some dojos, and ask some questions. There's no need to train overseas. Even Okinawan masters such as Yuichi Kuda, said that in a few years the best Okinawan karate would probably be taught outside Okinawa (in the U.S.).


    This forum is WHACK. I got some broke bushi trying to tell me about Okinawan Karate. Please, I ain't seen concrete proof of all this esoteric speculation since I returned to the "world". Living in Alaska must give you a major case of Seasonal Affective Disorder. I'd recommend Melatonin supplementation. Yes, I am an intellectual, and a cool one at that, with worldliness thrown in for some flavor. I gotsta' get the f--- off this forum (forever), as you fools are cutting into my Med School study time.


    Later for the "Smoke-n-Mirrors"!!!

    Bryan SEER

  12. #12
    zach Guest

    Default WOW again a snide lil' attitude.

    Wow Shorinichi, one would think that what with your obvious martial superiority, and the fact that you practice a purer, more effective version of Shorin-ryu than us, that you would have acheived some form of philosophical growth from it; but instead....Apparently your TRUE Shorin-ryu teaches you how to be a snotty little brat with no respect for anyone else. Also, im really sick of hearing you talk like youre an Okinanwan, your'e (as as far as I know) an American who apparently has lost his bearings and think he has some sort of "pure" understanding of a culture far removed from his own.
    Apparently your teacher, even given the fact that his training is purer, better, and less Japanese than everyone elses; has neglected teaching you any sort of humility whatsoever; or perhaps he hasn't and it's just you! People with your attitude in the martial arts make me laugh, it's almost as if youre out to adamantly prove that youre just plain better than everyone else. Grow up man. As far as leaving the forum goes, good! Your ratio of useful, interesting stuff versus juvenile crap is bad; youre hanging WAY too far on the juvenile crap side of things. I hope youre younger than I think.

    Go do some cardio karate.

    -Zach Z
    Last edited by zach; 14th April 2001 at 23:36.

  13. #13
    Guest

    Default Age?

    I'm older than you for sure. Being only 24-25 y.o. you can't be blamed for your outrage at my frankness. Where have you been? What have you done in life? What styles have you studied? What really sucks is the fact that maybe you've been studying martial sport for many years, although Shobayashi is usually considered legitmate Okinawan Karate.

    By the way, I'm not touting Ray Keller's site as the end-all-say-all of Ryukyuan Karate (although Kobayashi is also good Karate), I was just giving homey (Gogit9x) some background on my Sensei's Matsumura Hakutsuru style. If you noticed not only is Shorinkan and Hakutsuru taught there, but so is Capoeira, Iaido and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Cardio-Kickboxing or whatever is just a circumstance of materialism, plus it's less serious and involved than MA, and gives many people the aerobic benefits of Karate based calisthenics. I'm not even from Houston and I've never even met Keller, I just know that he brings in my Sensei to help polish up their Shorin-Ryu, and to get a better understood, and researched interpretation of kata bunkai.

    In 1976 I was already a Judoka. Where were you? I grew up in the Philippines where suckers don't have an opinion. All "abstractions" were out the door. How can you ever know the efficacy of your training, when the constant threat of litigation is staring over your shoulder? The sad thing is you'll totally agree with me in 10 yrs., but by then you would have put up with a decade of blindness, and wasted energy and time, with self-delusion.

    The less willing you are to accept reality the better it is for the more informed. I'm sure your empirically tested MA knowledge will serve some purpose for you someday. What that purpose will be, remains to be seen. Any MA instruction is better than no instruction, I guess.

    Bryan Seer

  14. #14
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    Default Mr. Rousselot--

    Perhaps I should apologize. After reading this thread, I can certainly understand why you would be short with someone speaking from my small amount of karate experience.

    Especially in such a "whack" forum.
    SPC Jason C. Diederich, MOARNG
    FEMAS, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Kali-Silat
    www.geocities.com/shaolinninjamarine

  15. #15
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    Default

    I just thought I would shed some light on the "schoolboy" comment, and take it for what it's worth for you. In his book "Karate-Do: My Way of Life--Gichin Funakoshi states that he changed the stances/techniques of his karate to make it safe to teach the school children. This is where the comment stemmed from.

    China Hand vs. Empty Hand: As someone else state were both pronounced Kara-Te. They had a committe and SOME of the masters went to it and changed the name to empty hand. Again, going back to the school boy references--they were no longer teaching fighting methods and were now teaching "empty hand" as a way to improve themselves. The masters who refused to change their styles did not even attend this "conference".

    This is also hard to prove because the styles represented at the conference will deny the changes and say that they teach the original method while schools that didn't go will claim to hold the true fighting methods. Alot of karate's history can be 'proven' either way by what sources you use.

    Just another aside: When the US occupied Japan after the war during their rebuilding. Karate and Judo were allowed to be practiced because they were viewed as sports and not a threat to US troops. However Aikido (not called that at this time though) was banned by the gov't because they new it was for military purposes.
    "Hard won, buy easy lost. True karate does not stay where it is not being used."

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