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Thread: Dillman and Montaigue

  1. #16
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    Originally posted by Kevin73
    Just another aside: When the US occupied Japan after the war during their rebuilding. Karate and Judo were allowed to be practiced because they were viewed as sports and not a threat to US troops. However Aikido (not called that at this time though) was banned by the gov't because they new it was for military purposes.
    Actually, Judo was banned along with all the other martial arts.
    Some say the modern emphasis on sport competition originated in the post-war era, with the efforts made by those at the Kodokan (and elsewhere) to have the ban lifted. I seem to recall that the ban lasted a couple of years.
    Karate was (mistakenly) seen as a dancelike form of exercise, and escaped the ban.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  2. #17
    zach Guest

    Default Re: Age?

    ? The sad thing is you'll totally agree with me in 10 yrs., but by then you would have put up with a decade of blindness, and wasted energy and time, with self-delusion.
    -------------------------
    I don't consider any of my training to be wasted time thank you.
    -------------
    The less willing you are to accept reality the better it is for the more informed. I'm sure your empirically tested MA knowledge will serve some purpose for you someday. What that purpose will be, remains to be seen. Any MA instruction is better than no instruction, I guess.
    -----------
    You don't even know the first thing about me!

    You've made alot of judgements about me you're not really quailfied to make, not knowing me, and i've done the same with you, for which I apologize. At any rate, I don't practice sport karate, and do consider myself a fairly serious student, and I certainly dont need you to tell me i'm not, regardless of your experience.

    Just so you know, I am not a newcomer to Shorin Ryu, I have been training since I was 8, granted with a few hiatuses (sp?). My main problem with all of this is that you seem to be asserting that it is not possible for one to gain any sort of valid experience in the Okinanawan martial arts without having trained directly with your Sensei, or someone directly related to Hohan Soken.

    Also, our training and the katas we practice are probably almost indentical (i'd be willing to bet), you assumed I am practicing "sport karate" without knowing my lineage. As far as where I was and who I train(ed) with; that's really none of your concern; despite what you might think there are valid, "non-sport karate" Okinawan MA's in various places, and they certainly don't need to answer to you as to the quailty of training or lineage they represent. The funny thing is you seem to have jumped to the conclusion that I'm some sort of tournament going free sparring neophyte, which I am not. I do the former never and the latter once in a great while in a controlled enviroment, purely for non-competitive learning purposes.

    At any rate my objection is not to your opinion on "sport karate", as we would probably find common ground on that; my objection is that you seem so concerned with dogging everyone else, why do you care? If everyone else is so much less legitimate than yourself why do you even bother preaching about it?

    Hey, if you honestly think that the classical kata's have been morphed or "dumbed down" by the people who spread Okinawan MA s to mainland Japan and other places, it would be interesting (im serious) for my own edification to know what has been changed and how you think it effects the bunkai, I have seen many of the kata's performed by a ceratin someone very close to your style, and aside from physical size differences etc, they really look no different.

    And as far as bunkai goes, anyone with knowledge of tuite who has been practicing the kata for some time can gain useful adavanced application from them, you don't have to know Hohan Soken personally for that I don't think. Being that the origin of many kata's has been somewhat obscured over the years, how can one say a particular bunkai is less valid than another? In my experience bunkai is adaptive, constantly changing and grows with the martial artist in question, although admittedly there will always be similarties.

    Anyway, Im not just being obnoxious here, but I would like to know how...as an example, Naihanchi Shodan has been modified from its original version as compared to what I practice, I believe I read that it was one of the kata taught by Soken. No doubt you will presume I somehow don't "deserve" to see this, however, if your'e going to present yourself has having some arcane knowledge that a Shorin Ryu plebe like myself does not possess I would like you to at least justify it by giving me this info. If you respond with a refusal or curt remark and do not fulfill this request you will have proved yourself to be a braggart who is doing nothing but name-dropping, and I will leave you alone, and not post anything more regrading you or in reply to you.

    thanks

    -Zach Z

  3. #18
    kusanku Guest

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    Zach Z tells someone, don't quite get whom, off but good.:-)

    Makes interesting statement, about 'if <so and so> possess arcane Shorin Ryu knowledge denied plebes like myself, ' give forth knowlefge or shaddap, basically.

    Haw!

    I possess some arcane Shorin Ryu knowledge, Zach- what would you?

    Naihanchi Shodan insofar as I know, while different in certain versions notably fo the style of its footwork and for some minor hand changes from school to school, is actually one of the least changed kata that there is.

    Possibly because in many schools it is one of the least understood, whilst in others it is the acknowledged foundation of the entire system, and in yet others,it is a fountainhead of many combative and defensive applications in almost all close range circumstances.

    Plus it is even a pretty good leg and hip training health and stance and footwork excercise.Aso you probably now it even has groundfighting applications.

    I don't say that the above is arcane knowledge any Shorin ryu practitioner wouldn't have.

    I do say that arcane knowledge does exist in Shorin and shorin based styles, arcane being knowledge many or even most practitioners do not possess.

    Some of that knowledge does in fact concern naihanchi kata shodan.

    But first I would have to know the actual extent of the knowledge you actually now possess, so as to not bore you by repeating knowledge you already have.

    Thus, you first should post all knowledge of Shorin Ryu that you now possess, and then I will post an arcane fact for your enjoyment, one not too dangerous so most people can't actually misuse it.

    incidentally, the word tuite was coined by Ryukyu Kempo mater Taika Oyata, and is a part Japanese and part Okinawan hybrid word.Before Taika Oyata used that word, no one ever used it, now everyone does, as though it was in their system.It wasn't, though.

    Possibly Soken O Sensei would have said toide or really toidi.
    I thus await the vast flood of your Shorin Ryu knowledge and I am sure everyone else here does also.:-)

    Ready to learn, arcane away.Anyone else possessing arcane Shorin knowledge please also spill it on this thread,especially the really dangerous and deadly type stuff, we can all use more arcane knowledge, even us acknowledged possessors of a little bit.:-)

    Withhold nothing.

  4. #19
    zach Guest

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    Originally posted by kusanku
    Zach Z tells someone, don't quite get whom, off but good.:-)

    Makes interesting statement, about 'if <so and so> possess arcane Shorin Ryu knowledge denied plebes like myself, ' give forth knowlefge or shaddap, basically.

    Yep, thats pretty much it, if it came off as juvenile im sorry. If you take a look at Shorinichis last post you will perhaps understand why I took offense.

    Haw!
    Hee!:>

    I possess some arcane Shorin Ryu knowledge, Zach- what would you?
    **
    What would I what? Do I have arcane knowledge? Probably not, that was my point.
    ***
    Naihanchi Shodan insofar as I know, while different in certain versions notably fo the style of its footwork and for some minor hand changes from school to school, is actually one of the least changed kata that there is.

    Possibly because in many schools it is one of the least understood, whilst in others it is the acknowledged foundation of the entire system, and in yet others,it is a fountainhead of many combative and defensive applications in almost all close range circumstances.
    ***
    Yeah, it's a big one in my dojo.
    ***
    Plus it is even a pretty good leg and hip training health and stance and footwork excercise.Aso you probably now it even has groundfighting applications.

    I don't say that the above is arcane knowledge any Shorin ryu practitioner wouldn't have.

    I do say that arcane knowledge does exist in Shorin and shorin based styles, arcane being knowledge many or even most practitioners do not possess.
    **
    I think this probably true of virtually any martial art.
    **
    Some of that knowledge does in fact concern naihanchi kata shodan.
    ***
    I used it as an example as my bunkai of it is mostly simple grappling techniques,etc, and incomplete at best, and though I know it , I am not particularly good at it, and find it one of the more difficult katas I know.


    But first I would have to know the actual extent of the knowledge you actually now possess, so as to not bore you by repeating knowledge you already have.
    ***
    Ive been studying for about 11 years, with hiatuses in training, which i am trying to avoid from now on. Frankly, I am a slow learner, and I would call my skill level, if asked to define it "intermediate" in terms of execution of technique and general understanding.
    ***
    Thus, you first should post all knowledge of Shorin Ryu that you now possess, and then I will post an arcane fact for your enjoyment, one not too dangerous so most people can't actually misuse it.
    **
    Okay, sounds good man.

    Well, I don't know all that much, but if you want to talk about something specific we can, as stated, I don't claim to know a whole lot, so it was more a request than anything else.
    **
    incidentally, the word tuite was coined by Ryukyu Kempo mater Taika Oyata, and is a part Japanese and part Okinawan hybrid word.Before Taika Oyata used that word, no one ever used it, now everyone does, as though it was in their system.It wasn't, though.
    ***
    I knew it was a modern term, and used it knowkingly, but did not know who it came from, thanks you for the info.
    ***
    Possibly Soken O Sensei would have said toide or really toidi.
    I thus await the vast flood of your Shorin Ryu knowledge and I am sure everyone else here does also.:-)
    ***
    Are you confusing me with the person who I posted in response to? I never claimed to have a huge amount of knowledge, I do, however, have a fair amount of experience and continue to be amazed by the lack of decorum shown by certain people, which was the point of my ridiculous rant. On the tuite thing, Ive often heard that the "Tode" or "Tuidi" was oringally used to roughly denote chinese martial arts in the Okinawan tradiiton, is this incorrect? It seems like somewhat of a departure from the current definition of Tuite, do they share the same root?
    ***
    Ready to learn, arcane away.Anyone else possessing arcane Shorin knowledge please also spill it on this thread,especially the really dangerous and deadly type stuff, we can all use more arcane knowledge, even us acknowledged possessors of a little bit.:-)

    ***
    Don't know if youre trying to mess with me or what here, it's not hard to maim someone or even kill them, an irresponsible lout with a few years of training can do these things. Thats not what i'm talking about here. Basically if someones going to keep touting themselves as knowing these "Shorin Ryu secrets" (and claiming that their system holds the "true" secrets) my opinion on it is put up, or shut up. I do not doubt Shorinichi's credentials and I do not doubt that he is far more skilled and knowledgeble than myself, in fact im pretty sure of it. However, given that this is the case, rather than constantly demeaning others, I would think someone with this skill level would be willing to "set me straight" it's an honest request. On this subject, could you;,given the time; reply to my post about kata histories in this forum? You seem knowledgable and I would appreciate it.
    thanks.
    Withhold nothing.
    Last edited by zach; 30th April 2001 at 20:27.

  5. #20
    kusanku Guest

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    Well All Right Zach-
    You seem a pretty sensible guy, and perhaps I was confusing you with the self syles Shorinichi, says the self styled Kusanku

    So I am going to answer all your questions, as you seem a serious practitioner and without dawse Big Ego so many people seem to possess.

    First to your question:The origin of Naihanchi kata is not know, if it's Chinese or if it's Okinawan. It does seem to be a fairly old kata, and once was saidd to be one kata, then two, and now thre, but others say it was always three, or three levels of one( the Uku Giko lineage of Matsubayashi ryu nihanchi says the latter).

    Naihanchi shodan is sure an easy kata to learn and but an awfully hard one to master, requiring about three years of guided training to do so completely, and as much as ten to unravel and polish further.

    The Tuite/Toide/Toidi issue: I believe you are referring to the terms Tote, in Japanese, and Toudi, in Okinawan, signifying To for Tang or China, di or ti or te for hand.

    Now the promised arcan knowledge, and in fact I was messing ut not with you, I wanted to see what people claiming some would say. Apparently no one bit, so here goes, to keep my word:

    If you learn the Yang TaiJi form, especially as descended from the Ch'eng Man Ching lineage, you will learn, in slow motion where you can see it, the same body mechanics as advanced Shorin ryu, and believe me, tha is an arcan fact, arcane meaning hidden, because not so many people know or knew that one.

    Forgive me please for having some fun but whenI saw that word, arcane, I just had to come in on that.So many people claim arcane knowledge and when put to the test, don't have the dollar for the ticket.:-)

    So, as a bonus, another arcane fact for you to add to your Shorin ryu:Naihanchi properly done is also a form of Chi gung or qigong.

    Here's one from Choki Motobu on applications from Naihanchi, courtesy of an article he wrote once paraphrased: If you want to see what naihanchi apps can be, turn sideays into a front facing stance and do the techniques with a partner, then they become , obvious." At least some of them do.

    Obviously when one utilizes the aihanchi techniques in a real situation, one does anything but stand facing opponent in horse stance.

    You might of course, be in a natural stance.Another arcane fact, for real.

    Here's another one for you: tuite and kyusho jutsu both require a , for lack of a better word, lighter touch.

    Tuite requires a very easy movement and weight dropping into the oppoent through the wrist or wrists, and kyusho jutsu to be effective requires atemi, or sharp striking power, which must be developed in your kata for them to attain true effectiveness.

    Naihanchi kata functions on many levels at once,grappling is one of them, also point striking, also power hitting, sweeping and locking, also groundwork,simultaneous strike to incoming limbs and strikes to bdy and or head/neck,trapping with arms and legs, hooking, and many other apps. It is truly an important kata.

    So, what we then see, is a ot ore than meets the eye, and that, I submit, fits the definition of arcane, to a T.

    Member what I said about Taiji.

    Take easy and don't let anyone on here bother you, okay?We got some real keyboard warriors on these boards, some truly awesome pistoleros, legends in their own minds.

    I'm much more impressed by what you said about your own level as 'intermediate.'Sounds like you would be dangerous should anyone be so foolish as to attack you.Someone who doesn't have an inflated view of themelves sounds serious.:-)

    I'm not, of course. No, pay no attention to the kusanku behind the curtain, he is old and wishes only to view the sky in peace, all of which is true, mostly.:-)

  6. #21
    Maverick Guest

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    Ground fighting? Now that's the one thing I've yet to see in Naihanchi. How about a clue to that riddle Kusanku?

  7. #22
    kusanku Guest

    Default

    Ah, my old friend Maverick!Good to see you here again!

    Why since you asked, consider doing naihanchi on the mat facing upwards against an opponent trying to mount and control you, which s a quite old technique.

    Since naihanchi is basic, intermediate and advanced close combat self defense, it naturally has such applications.


    Note the funny footwork, weaving around your own ( or someone on top of you's body) leg, then the rear foot circling or arcing out from under, coming also up and over from a supine position, and controlling an opponent.

    Now let's imagine we are on the ground because hey, that leg dive worked, but we controlled our fall and still have unbashed head.That's a lot to imagine but on a turf , rather than a pavement, it could well be.Watch out for rocks, though!

    So we had the opponent's hand, as shown by the hikite, and he is trying something, like maybe a choe or a punch, with the other hand, ad we are blocking with a midddle block/striking with a backfist up into say, the side of the face or head, or maybe in the neck, or what we can reach.

    So now the legs go into action:One comes over our own under his,maybe kicking with the shin, his groin in passing, and finishes up against his opposite inner thigh, and this could switch a couple times, whamming the groin, remember we got one of his wrists.Maybe instead we do reverse footwork and move our right foot under the left, now switch the hips and pull with our lef5t hikite and roll the the fellow off of us.:-)

    With perhaps a kote gaeshi or just a horizontal tsubammegaeshi to make things work.

    Alternately if we get his say, right hand into our left one, we can do a one hand ikkyo and fling him off of us.The crossing footwork enables us to roll the hips to the right as we do so.

    Or say he tries to mount, and we use the crossover to get him in the guard or to apply the actual dojime( bodyscissors).Now we cross under with the other foot to rollhim off of us.Meanwhile the simultaneous hands and locking/striking arm techniques ruin his day and allow us to get away with some stuff which under normal strict grappling rules, we never would.


    Naihanchi is like a symphony, it takes ever ember playng eah its own art, but done rght, can be magnificent and the conclusion, can and is designed to see you safely out of a situation.

    Now the groundfighting apps of naihanchi also include the nami gaeshi kick,which can be applied against a trapped joint, for instance in a figure four lock. Also it can coil out of the grasp of someone about to lock you.

    You should also consider that the return motion of naihanchi can be used to spread an opponent's legs out and take away his triangular support base, which is where a lot of power comes from in groundfighting, but you almost need skill and knowledge of judo to follow this point.

    Anyway, that's an outline of some basic principles of using naihanchi kata on the ground, from a defensive position, underneath.

    Note the many double blocking and striking moves that the arms do as this is all done.

    Sometimes applications mean turning things upside down and inside out.

    Other kata likewise can, but not all do, have such applications. I believe the older, pre Pinan forms, mostly would fit this category, including kusanku.

    But that is a more complex form by far.

    Naihanchi is capable of very advanced applications but is simple of performance, and gross motor skills are key in basic apps including groud defense.

    In the case of Naihanchi Shodan no Kata, which version you use is simply, not that important, for the basic apps,including those on the ground.

    I hasten to add, a good knowledge of judo here is invaluable.Particularly newaza or ground technique.

    Merely knowing what some things can be used for can give you ideas, but basic skills are necessary, and judo can well supply these.

    I dont mention GJJ or BJJ< as I read an article by Rickson Gracie lamenting the large amount of people teaching what thewy call this, who either do not know or do not teach basic priciples and escapes, and any good judo club will , thus you know what you are getting.

    Of course if you can take lessons from the gracies or machados or any actual good practitioner of BJJ or GJJ, great.

    It doesn't take long to acquire some skills.

    I am myself a sankyu in Kodokan judo and it took four and a half years to get that, for me, back in the Sixties and early Seventies.It stays with you.

    But I feel it is as necessary to acquire some real grappling skills from a teacher who has them and can teach them to you,as it is to learn to stand, step, kick, punch and strike before learning kata.Or as you learn it from a good teacher, one.

    Given that you have the karate skills, then what is next needed to benefit from Naihanchi apps to the fullest, is maybe, for most people, a bit o' Judo.

    Then the basic outline above, should easily enable you to apply, and apply well, the Naihanchi ground defense principles.

    And that is the way of this from where I do see it.

    Regards,

  8. #23
    zach Guest

    Default Thanks for the info

    Wow, thanks for the info, i'd never given the TaiChi thingy any thought, but now that you mention it, I've done a version of the Yang long form a couple of times (though its certainly not something im familiar with on any in-depth level) because my father practices it in addition to Shorin-Ryu, and I can actually see the connection now that you mention it, the tegatana (sp?) is particularly interesting in reference to this, I will explore these concepts further.
    I tried to think of naihanchi bunkai in terms of groundfighting, didn't get much until I thought of the wave kick/groin block/sweep type thing in terms of groundfighting, now i'm coming up with all sorts of interesting stuff! Though I suppose I should worry about proper execution of the kata first Anyway, thanks for the info, it was very educational, and the TaiChi thing was a definite gem as I'd never directly thought of it and looked at the techiniques and compared them.

    Even though I've run into a few attitudes here, I've pleasantly surprised by the amount of people on this board who seem sincere and knowledgable, so you take the good with the bad I suppose, heh. I have a bad tendency to react confrontationally to confrontational attitudes, I was upset about Shorinichis immediately malicious attidude, but in the end it's really unimportant, so thanks again for the info man.

    -Zach Z

  9. #24
    kusanku Guest

    Default

    You're welcome , Zach, always glad to help people out with such things.

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