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Thread: Legl ocks, kneebars, helhooks etc.

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    Default Legl ocks, kneebars, helhooks etc.

    I was wondering if there is documentation on the use of leg locks, heel hooks, knee bars etc. in old Koryu jujutsu manuals? I read somewhere that all of the leg techniques in Judo for instance were imported from catch wrestling but i am not so sure about that.

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    Hello,

    Kawaishi Mikinosuke who was a Judo teacher wrote some very detailed books about Judo but according to Marco Marzagalli, it seems that he had studied some Ju-jutsu style prior studying Judo.

    At any rate, in one of his books, ma méthode de Judo, there is a small section dealing with ashi kansetsu waza. Unfortunately, Kawaishi does not give any historical explanations about those techniques.

    The link under shows some drawings and some technical explanations are added (in french)

    http://www.aryanalibris.com/index.ph...ethode-de-Judo

    There might be an english version available on pdf but I could not find it.

    As for Koryu, there are not too many examples, I fear.

    There is one such technique in the hanza handachi set of the sankajo in Daito-ryu and some other katame waza involving the legs but this is not much to say the least.

    You might like to see it though. It starts at 26,10 (if you do not want to watch the whole film of course.



    Here a second version performed by Kondo Katsuyuki

    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    Thanks for the links Raff, I already know about them however but the book you posted seems to be a better scan that the one I have so it will come in handy. Kawaishi is a puzzle of a character, it's said that he studied some form of jujutsu at the Butokukai but not which style, on Judoinfo they go as far as saying that he studied some form of "Aikijujutsu" http://judoinfo.com/kawaishi/ . On this link http://judoinfo.com/leglocks/ it was once written that he was the one to bring leg locks into the Kodokan but it was erased from the post. I am not surprised however seeing as that he was a professional wrestler in England the idea that he brought the leg joint manipulation techniques from catch wrestling is highly plausible.

    As for Daito ryu, it's said that it contains a whole set of waza just for leg join attacks but I don't have any source for it. There are certain leg joint techniques in Aikido, some of them on this video https://www.facebook.com/16782167328...8248540578241/ , so I can only guess if they are similar.

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    You are welcome Igor,

    We have the same information about Kawaishi apparently. He was born in Kyoto and learnt some unspecified Aikijujutsu style at the Dai Nippon Butokukai until 1920 when he left for the United States and then United Kingdom.

    It seems that he taught Aikijujutsu in Liverpool and, to make both ends meet,fought against wrestlers and boxers under the pseudonym Matsuda.

    What is interesting is that Kawaishi got a sandan (thir dan) directly from Kano in 1931. It seems that back in the days, people with strong Ju-jutsu background would get ranked in judo as well. To make it further complicated, it also seems that Ju-jutsu people would also call sometimes their art judo. so things are not that easy to sort.

    What is also known is that the method developed by Kawaishi was a bit different than that of the Kodokan and that Kawaishi added more material from previous experiences in Ju-jutsu, and guess what the ashi kansetsu waza are part of it. This eventually turned into a bitter rivalry between groups. At any rate, many old time judo players in Europe do still consider Kawaishi as a major source of inspiration.

    To find out more, we would need to consult the newspapers archives in Liverpool.

    If you like leg locks, you might have heard of Gokor Chivichyan who is considered one of the very best in that speciality. I know he made some videos on the subject and his skills are very impressive.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raff View Post
    You are welcome Igor,

    We have the same information about Kawaishi apparently. He was born in Kyoto and learnt some unspecified Aikijujutsu style at the Dai Nippon Butokukai until 1920 when he left for the United States and then United Kingdom.

    It seems that he taught Aikijujutsu in Liverpool and, to make both ends meet,fought against wrestlers and boxers under the pseudonym Matsuda.

    What is interesting is that Kawaishi got a sandan (thir dan) directly from Kano in 1931. It seems that back in the days, people with strong Ju-jutsu background would get ranked in judo as well. To make it further complicated, it also seems that Ju-jutsu people would also call sometimes their art judo. so things are not that easy to sort.

    What is also known is that the method developed by Kawaishi was a bit different than that of the Kodokan and that Kawaishi added more material from previous experiences in Ju-jutsu, and guess what the ashi kansetsu waza are part of it. This eventually turned into a bitter rivalry between groups. At any rate, many old time judo players in Europe do still consider Kawaishi as a major source of inspiration.

    To find out more, we would need to consult the newspapers archives in Liverpool.
    There seems to be a mentioning of Liverpool in this post also http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...418#post477418
    along with mentions of Ueshiba, Kotaro Yoshida and the Dai Nippon Butokukai.

    If you like leg locks, you might have heard of Gokor Chivichyan who is considered one of the very best in that speciality. I know he made some videos on the subject and his skills are very impressive.
    Yes, I know about Chivichyan, he's from the Russian school of Judo/wrestling and Sambo. They have some great leg locks. I especially like this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2oFvJspHA .

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    Nagao ryu ends some of their kata with a finishing ankle lock, and there are a couple ankle picks and leg throws (throwing by holding the leg).

    Earl would have to chime in here, but I wonder if the ankle move is symbolic of or supposed to be a todome type thing, to say nothing of simply cutting out or blowing out the Achilles so that the opponent was several limited in being able to remain a combatant.
    Kit Leblanc

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    Judging by these two links: https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comment...und_about_the/ , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataemon_Tanabe it would be that Mataemon Tanabe was the one who introduced leg locks to the DNB and then later on it was Kawaishi who introduced them to the Kodokan.

    Some things don't add up however, only one lock was officially added into the DNB, and his way of fighting resembles more that of a wrestler then a jujutsu master.

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