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Thread: Sitting with Sword in Belt

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    Default Sitting with Sword in Belt

    Why has it become such a fixture in the JMA to practice iai forms whilst sitting in seiza with the sword in the belt?
    Samuel Zavaletta

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    A number of reasons. Because they have incorporated etiquette into sword work. Particularly with indoor training and embu.

    Things seem to have taken a strange turn of events over the years with people actually doing practice outside as one does not traditionally sit in seiza on the ground. So particular schools have developed methods.

    My Ryu is very simple. We dont sit down and all ettiquete if needed is performed before we enter an area. We also respectfully "never" draw a blade facing kamiza.

    Doing Hono Embu, schools that sit in seiza lay out a ground sheet. I particularly remember one embu done on Ganryu Jima to commemorate the death of Sasaki Kojiro. At that time the island had no tourists and the grass was over a meter high. Quite funny for the ryu that only knew how to cut from seiza. No one could see them very well and lawn mowers were not needed that day.

    One well know Ha leader said to me he was told by his sensei that seiza was for sitting in peace to drink tea with friends. And that if.....if ever the other person showed aggression we must be prepared to act in drawing from seiza. To me this rather goes against the grain when one considers that one was not allowed to take daito into someones house.

    Another explanation I have been given by a well known Menkyo Kaiden is that seiza nobu is a method of educating one to cut with the hips.

    No disrespect intended in posting to those that do seiza. You do what you are taught and dont question it.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyaku View Post
    A number of reasons. Because they have incorporated etiquette into sword work. Particularly with indoor training and embu.

    Things seem to have taken a strange turn of events over the years with people actually doing practice outside as one does not traditionally sit in seiza on the ground. So particular schools have developed methods.

    My Ryu is very simple. We dont sit down and all ettiquete if needed is performed before we enter an area. We also respectfully "never" draw a blade facing kamiza.

    Doing Hono Embu, schools that sit in seiza lay out a ground sheet. I particularly remember one embu done on Ganryu Jima to commemorate the death of Sasaki Kojiro. At that time the island had no tourists and the grass was over a meter high. Quite funny for the ryu that only knew how to cut from seiza. No one could see them very well and lawn mowers were not needed that day.

    One well know Ha leader said to me he was told by his sensei that seiza was for sitting in peace to drink tea with friends. And that if.....if ever the other person showed aggression we must be prepared to act in drawing from seiza. To me this rather goes against the grain when one considers that one was not allowed to take daito into someones house.

    Another explanation I have been given by a well known Menkyo Kaiden is that seiza nobu is a method of educating one to cut with the hips.

    No disrespect intended in posting to those that do seiza. You do what you are taught and dont question it.
    As you've pointed out, the practice seems quite ahistorical. I've never heard that one was "not allowed to take daito into someones house" (though I am aware of contexts/places where certain weapons, or drawing them, was prohibited). However, it is most certainly the case that long weapons are placed aside when "at rest" (whereas short weapons are kept on one's person). One would only keep one's longsword in one's belt (within the context of sitting in seiza with another person) if one had zero respect and/or trust in the counterparty.

    The explanation involving the hips also seems a bit off. If it were the case that drawing from seiza was a means of "educating one to cut with the hips", then one would think that more people drawing in such a fashion would actually be cutting with the hips. However, typically I see a puffed out chest and hips square to the opponent while the arms do the work.

    As you've said, no disrespect intended. Just something that's popped out to me in recent days as an interesting quirk.
    Samuel Zavaletta

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    Well, seiza practice may have several purposes; to teach manners, as a stylized form for being downed, and for techniques intended for kodachi in “real life”.
    No weapons? Not martial.

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    I have heard quite a few reasons and justifications for kata from seiza over the years. The real reason, as Hyakutake sensei pointed out, is that this is what we're told to do. There are a number of schools that do not perform kata from seiza. Therefore, if a person seriously objects, there are options to allow that person to still learn the sword.

    This is an argument that has played out several times in the past. You cold probably find some of them here using the search function.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Quote Originally Posted by entwidumala View Post
    As you've pointed out, the practice seems quite ahistorical. I've never heard that one was "not allowed to take daito into someones house" (though I am aware of contexts/places where certain weapons, or drawing them, was prohibited). However, it is most certainly the case that long weapons are placed aside when "at rest" (whereas short weapons are kept on one's person). One would only keep one's longsword in one's belt (within the context of sitting in seiza with another person) if one had zero respect and/or trust in the counterparty.

    The explanation involving the hips also seems a bit off. If it were the case that drawing from seiza was a means of "educating one to cut with the hips", then one would think that more people drawing in such a fashion would actually be cutting with the hips. However, typically I see a puffed out chest and hips square to the opponent while the arms do the work.

    As you've said, no disrespect intended. Just something that's popped out to me in recent days as an interesting quirk.
    Well if you are not generating power from tanden and koshi to cut sitting or standing I am really at loss to figure out what kind of sword work you do. In Japan "everything' is powered by the strength of the lower half of the body, even walking. It's the first thing foreigners have to adapt to when they come to live in Japan to do budo. Lack of skill is almost always based on lack of this power.

    In some ryu seiza has been added as an addition. Likewise the addition of etiquette.

    If you have spend some time in a Japanese house you would know that they are so low you have to bend down to get through door ways. Swinging a diato would be impossible. That's why they are curved and pointy. So that you can stab people.

    Olden Japan was very severe. In area I live they even put a wife to death because she let a stranger use the toilet. Taking long blade into a house was considered ill intent. That's what the genkan is for. Leave your sandals and swords.
    Last edited by hyaku; 16th December 2018 at 08:50.
    Hyakutake Colin

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    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyaku View Post
    If you have spend some time in a Japanese house you would know that they are so low you have to bend down to get through door ways. Swinging a diato would be impossible. That's why they are curved and pointy. So that you can stab people.
    They are curvy because the curvature aids the cut. They are pointy so that people can be stabbed with them.

    Larger varieties might be a bit too cumbersome for use in the smaller Japanese homes, but many would not be too cumbersome. Though I suppose it's simply a matter of what sword techniques one is familiar with. I'm sure some styles are inappropriate for use in confined spaces.
    Samuel Zavaletta

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    Quote Originally Posted by entwidumala View Post
    They are curvy because the curvature aids the cut. They are pointy so that people can be stabbed with them.
    Not really. That little bit of lore was put forth by one of the early companies making Japanese style swords from China in order to get people to purchase their swords, which had quite a bit of sori. I can cut equally as well with a European sword as I can a Japanese sword. The curvature does aid the thrust because it not only pokes a hole if you stab someone, it also cuts wider than the width of the blade due to the curvature.

    Quote Originally Posted by entwidumala View Post
    Larger varieties might be a bit too cumbersome for use in the smaller Japanese homes, but many would not be too cumbersome. Though I suppose it's simply a matter of what sword techniques one is familiar with. I'm sure some styles are inappropriate for use in confined spaces.
    What sword styles are you familiar with that would be appropriate for using a daito indoors?
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    Not really. That little bit of lore was put forth by one of the early companies making Japanese style swords from China in order to get people to purchase their swords, which had quite a bit of sori. I can cut equally as well with a European sword as I can a Japanese sword. The curvature does aid the thrust because it not only pokes a hole if you stab someone, it also cuts wider than the width of the blade due to the curvature.
    Nope.

    Not only do curved swords have more cutting surface per unit of length (to greater or lesser degrees of course, depending on the curvature), they also tend to concentrate the initial contact on to a smaller surface area (because the rest of the blade is curving backwards away from the point of impact) which ultimately facilitates a better cut.

    Or, perhaps a better way to say it is that the natural properties of the curvature help make up for deficiencies on the part of the swordsman. That you can cut just as well with either is a testament to your skill level.

    What sword styles are you familiar with that would be appropriate for using a daito indoors?
    So probably not Jigen Ryuu. LOL.

    Shin Musou Hayashizaki Ryuu is one that comes to mind.
    Last edited by entwidumala; 13th December 2018 at 13:35.
    Samuel Zavaletta

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    Quote Originally Posted by entwidumala View Post
    Nope.

    Not only do curved swords have more cutting surface per unit of length (to greater or lesser degrees of course, depending on the curvature), they also tend to concentrate the initial contact on to a smaller surface area (because the rest of the blade is curving backwards away from the point of impact) which ultimately facilitates a better cut.

    Or, perhaps a better way to say it is that the natural properties of the curvature help make up for deficiencies on the part of the swordsman. That you can cut just as well with either is a testament to your skill level.



    So probably not Jigen Ryuu. LOL.

    Shin Musou Hayashizaki Ryuu is one that comes to mind.
    Due to the sword arts entering peaceful times many methods such as stabbing and throwing have fallen by the wayside. I teach and practice two ryu that use kodachi. One of them uses throwing techniques. It's also a point of fact that it is difficult to teach anyone to use hara with a short weapon. This is why long sword waza precedes short. To teach koshi to the extent that it becomes subliminal action. Then one can move on to Kodachi. You didnt say what ryu you belong to. I am sure you are aware that ryu like MJER use waza for assassination.

    Easy to know what blades do what and how long is best if you also do battojutsu.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    I've no idea if true but years ago I heard that kata from seiza began after an incident in which Uchida Ryogoro was assaulted while sitting in seiza and was injured before he could bring his own sword into play. Supposedly Uchida incorporated kata from seiza after that, and it stuck in a number of schools.

    I asked his great grandson, a 7dan judoka about that but he didn't have any info.
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
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    Quote Originally Posted by entwidumala View Post
    Why has it become such a fixture in the JMA to practice iai forms whilst sitting in seiza with the sword in the belt?
    I believe some schools do this because it’s difficult to use the sword from this position and more so from tate hiza. If you consider kata as ‘toho’-training to use the sword rather than ‘snippets of combat’-then putting a trainee in awkward positions trains them to find using the sword in more natural positions, far easier. It’s rather like Karate kata where you train to do a spin and backfist strike followed by kick whilst standing on one leg (Chinto-Wado Ryu). It’s frustratingly awkward and takes ages to get right without wobbling or putting your foot down after a curtailed, ineffective kick. But with repeated practise you can do it beautifully and your balance and coordination improves. Similarly, I believe, using the sword from seiza or tate hiza make you more accomplished in handling the sword.

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